"French Legions vs Regiments" Topic

I am a little confused between these two terms. As I understand it, the Legions were first raised during the reign of Francis I but continued in some form into the Wars of Religion. Whereas the Regiments were created before or during the first of these wars by the Duke of Guise in order to subvert the power of the Huguenot Colonel General of Infantry, Andelot. Did the later French infantry formations (Picardie, Champagne, Piedmont, etc.) descend from the old Legions or new Regiments? The flags shown on the The Perfect Captain website suggest the former, but Wood's 'The King's Army' seems to indicate the latter. Any why, for that matter, is Wood entirely silent on the matter of the Legions. He mentions the new Regiments, provincial regiments and garrison companies, but not the Legions. Can anyone shed any light on this? Many thanks.

It's been a while since I read Wood, but I wasn't as conflicted as you after I had.

Those regiments you mention are traditionally traced back to the Legions of Francois I. Perhaps Wood is simply using a modern term, regiment, in place of Legion?

Hello Grafthmond,
By 'new regiments' do you mean the New Legions as opposed to Old Legions? Both sides raised 'provincial' regiments of infantry in the WoR in France, mostly privately raised troops and others provided by towns and districts. The Huguenots created 'circles' (like parishes) that produced a semi-military meant to protect the congregations from violence before the war, and these were expanded into larger military contingents later. Thus Monluc is told by a pastor trying to hire him in the first war that he could raise 5000 men easily, IIRC.

Some of the Old Legions were still embodied as garrisons on the German and Italian frontier throughout the early wars and were often drained off by the King to bolster his armies, along with mercenaries and auxiliaries loaned by the Pope and the King of Spain.

The New Legions were not considered as good as the old ones, being basically a better class of militia (quality-wise) with government-supplied equipment and officers. Local regiments, even though disbanded after each peace could develop skills and quality to put them on a par with the Legions, although most were just not that good.

The Huguenots suffered from a lack of equipment but the raw material was as good as their opposite numbers, since Coligny and D'Andelot brought a goodly number of professional officers into their camp. Unfortunately for them there just wasn't time to train the rank and file in the first War as cohesive units and their performance at Dreux was not stellar to say the least.

It should be remembered that the French developed Legions because their infantry was notoriously bad in the field. That's why the crown brought in the Swiss, and the Huguenots Landsknechts, as soon as the balloon went up….

Regiment Picardie:
March 22, 1558: creation of the Legion of Picardy from the bands of Picardy (1479)
1578: renamed Regiment Saint-Luc
1579 renamed Regiment Sérillac
January 1585: renamed Picardy regiment

Regiment Champagne:
March 22, 1558: creation of the legion of Champagne
May 1573: renamed Regiment Sainte-Colombe
1579 renamed Regiment Épernon
1581: renamed Regiment Montcassin
January 1585: renamed Champagne regiment.

Regiment Piedmont:
1569: creation of the regiment Brissac
1585: renamed Regiment Piedmont.

Regiment Navarre
1558: creation of the Guards regiment of the King of Navarre from les bandes du Guyenne, an irregular formation.
August 2, 1589: renamed Regiment Valirault
March 22, 1594: renamed the regiment Navarre.

As this shows, some of the 'Old 6' regiments did indeed form originally as Legions, others didnt!

I hope this helps…

Many thanks for the responses. So, if I understand correctly, some of the independent infantry companies that existed before the wars were from the legions. These companies could be drawn upon and combined with other companies to form regiments. Wood uses the example of two companies based in Pignerol in 1567 in the chapter on infantry. One is commanded by Brissac, which Wood describes as 'a veteran combat company' and later as 'soldiers of the vielles bandes'. The other led by Jehan de Monluc; 'a pure garrison company'. Brissac's company was mustered for war by the Duke of Nevers alongside four other veteran companies as a 'regiment'. Apparently Brissac was appointed colonel. In game terms (Spanish Fury: Battles terms, that is) how would one class this unit? Would any regiments be drawn solely from legion companies? If not, does the 'legion' unit classification simply indicate a better quality of foot? (The thought occurs to me that the TPC Yahoo Group might be a better place to ask some of these questions, but since I have started…).

Without digging into the more massive history books the French wiki on the "Old corps" suggests that "Les Six Grands Vieux" traced their origin not to Francis I legions but rather to the Legions created by Henri II (Picardie of course counted the "old bands" created in 1479 as their origin)
link
link

The best coverage of the tangled history of the Legions in English that I have found is David Potter's in "War and Goverment in the French Provinces" and "Renaissance France at War".

Basicly Francis I raised the first legions in 1534 but the reform proved problematic to carry out and the results were less than successfull, after some use the legions began to divindle and according to Potter the became a border and territorial force that was little mentioned from the 1540's onward.

In 1558 Henri II makes a new attempt and recreates the legions but with a modified organisation compared to that used by Francis. Again the general result was unsatisfactory but parts of the 'new' Legions lingered on until the Guise reforms mentioned below.

It is important to keep in mind that neither type of "Legion" ever replaced the use of the "Old" and "New" bands of infantry, the "Old Bands" being the "Bandes Picardes" while the "New Bands" were the "Aventuriers" who supplied a significant part of the French infantry. (By the time of Henri II the Aventurier name was only used for the temporary bands raised for a specific campaign, earlier it had been much more of a catch all phrase for the infantry)

According to Potter:
"The development of the legions and the old bands into recognisable regiments took place, of course, shortly after the end of the Habsburg-Valois Wars on the initiative of the duke of Guise. (…) The origins of the historic regiments is to be found in the duke of Guise's division of all French troops 'de dec. a les monts' under three maitres de camp on the Spanish model in 1560-2." Potter refers to Marchand's biography of Brissac as his source, page 522 to be precise and the book can be found free online at Gallica
link

Daniel, thanks for weighing in. I have Potter's 'Renaissance France at War' but have struggled with his account of the development of the French infantry forces. I found it rather opaque. Your summary has made these passages much clearer.

Personally I've always used the "Legion" unit card for the best French infantry (IIRC it is the best native French infantry card) based on their performance rather than their designation. This means that the actual Legion seldom get to use that in the scenarios I've worked with so far.

Potter's description is a bit dense and could probably have done with either more editing or more space as it feels like the author was forced to compress the fact filled text into a small word count. The research it top notch though considering how complex the subject is.