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"Basing 6mm figures" Topic


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Edzard01 Feb 2016 8:32 a.m. PST

I have some 6mm Napoleonic (Adler) I would like to get back to and have done some thinking about how to base these figures up. I would like them to be suitable for multiple rules.

Currently I might do 1 base per company with a grand total of 4 figures each (2x2) bringing a paper strength (720 men) French battalion to 24 figures (1:30)

I am not sure how big each base should be, 15mm x 10mm or perhaps even smaller. Will have to do some tests for that when I finish the first figures, probably in a few weeks.
What do you guys think?

Whirlwind01 Feb 2016 8:58 a.m. PST

I don't like small and fiddly bases for 6mm, I think it makes life harder than it needs to be. I would go for a minimum of 30mm frontage (say 6 figures) per base, 40mm or 60mm being better.

Company basing is all very well until you get to the Brits (or early French). 9-10 company units are a royal pain: use a four-five divisional (i.e. two company) structure instead and save yourself some grief.

If I were to go smaller than that…use magnetic basing to make the individual games better.

Have you any idea which rules specifically you may be playing?

Martin Rapier01 Feb 2016 8:59 a.m. PST

I think you'll find bases that small very fiddly to work with.

It depends what sort of games you want to be playing, but all my 6mm Horse & Musket stuff infantry is based up fairly generically on either 30x10 (single rank) or 30x20 (double rank) strips and I group them into 'units' as required by specific sets of rules. It tend to go with units being brigades or divisions though rather than battalions, so tend not to worry abut specific companies.

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Feb 2016 9:23 a.m. PST

I use Baccus which come on 20mm wide strips so I base them on 20x20 steel bases. For French infantry it's three strips or 12 figures per base. That way I can use sheet magnet movement trays for whatever rule set grabs my fancy this week…ooohh shiny!

picture

Close up view:

picture

Personal logo Swampster Supporting Member of TMP01 Feb 2016 9:36 a.m. PST

My 6mm were on company bases (though 6 or 8 to a company)
Each base was two ranks deep. A six figure coy was 15mm x 15mm, an 8 figure was 20mm x 15mm.

The bases were magnetic so a whole battalion could be easily moved in formation and easily changed from line to column.

Where smaller units were needed, I either used fewer companies or had two per base as Whirlwind suggests. I didn't get round to doing my British but would have had 5 x 2 company bases. As much as anything, it stops the columns being absolutely ridiculously long (rather than just too long).

Hafen von Schlockenberg01 Feb 2016 9:43 a.m. PST

Extra Crispy: what the heck figure ratio do you use? How many battalions like this do you have? Do you own a gymnasium?

SoW Reddog01 Feb 2016 9:44 a.m. PST

My one piece of advice here would be to go for multiple bases per battalion/regiment as single basing them on say a 60mm x 30mm as per Baccus "standard" really limits you down the track IMO. You can always sabot base for grand tactical games such as grand Armee, V & B and blucher. You can't however cut a big base down…

steamingdave4701 Feb 2016 10:34 a.m. PST

I base mine on 30 mm frontage, 20 mm depth. This was originally done for FoGN rules, but two such bases give same frontage as a Baccus base, so they can be used for Polemos and they are not too far out for Age of Eagles. Most of mine are Heroics and Ros, so I cram as many infantry as I can onto the bases-typically 10 to 14, with half that number for specialist skirmishers bases. Cavalry range from 5 for the heaviest types down to 2 or 3 for Cossacks and scouting types.
SoW Reddig has it right, you can always link together the smaller bases- mine are magnetised and I have 60x30mm steel bases if I want to link bases together. Moving 10mm or 15mm frontage bases would drive you insane- the whole point of 6m. Is that you able to recreate battles at Coros if Army level- that's a lot of bases to shift.

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Feb 2016 12:02 p.m. PST

@Hafen:

I am doing a small game for the Peninsula. I want to remind gamers what a line looks like so when they want one to dance a minuet when we use 6 bases and I say no, they understand why.

French battalions are 288 figures. I have 3 done. They are 4 bases per co., 12 figure per base so 48 per company.

Cavalry units are 90-100 figure, based 3 per base. I have two British units done.

Batteries are 6 guns each.

I have not decided how I will base my Brotish yet….

MajorB01 Feb 2016 1:57 p.m. PST

All my 6mm Napoleonic figures are on 20mm x 20mm bases.

Edwulf01 Feb 2016 2:55 p.m. PST

All mine are on 20x20mm squares. They look fine.
If I was planning on playing huge mass art games might consider larger bases. But my aim is to have 1-2 Divisions per side for black powder.

All units have 5-6 bases per unit. I'm not worried about each stand being a perfect company for the British as I understand the battalions companies were equalised into divisions/platoons anyway.

Edwulf01 Feb 2016 2:57 p.m. PST

My AWI are on 20mmx10mm bases. The March columns are tighter but the base depth doesn't leave much for basing/decoration.

Glenn Pearce01 Feb 2016 4:59 p.m. PST

Hello Edzard!

I think the first problem you have to deal with is your desire to play multiple rules. Some rules have specific basing requirements while others don't. That means you either have to choose a small base to represent part of a battalion and use them as is for some rules and use a larger movement tray or sabot for other rules. Alternatively you can simply use a single base to represent a battalion and use markers or amended rules where smaller bases would normally be used.

Your next problem is your desire to use a single base as a company. That becomes a little problematic in some situations as different countries had different numbers of companies at different periods and different strengths. Some rules deal with this in one way while others do it differently so when you change rules you could hit a brick wall and have to rebase your figures. A wargamers nightmare. The other danger with company basing is just how big will your battalion be in line. The bigger that is the smaller your table will be.

Baccus 6mm solved the 6mm basing problems years ago by introducing their single basing system of 60mm x 30mm for infantry battalions, cavalry regiments, limbers, wagons, etc. and 30mm x 30mm for artillery (guns) and commanders. Only two bases for your entire collection.

A lot of people are using this base which increases your chances of finding other players. You can also buy or sell them on ebay which means you have a marketable collection should you ever want to sell it.

You can play almost any rule set out there as is or with a few minor rule adjustments.

Another great thing about this base is there is still room to dress it up creating a mini diorama. That will make those Adler figures pop. Crowding 6mm figures onto small bases simply takes away from how good they look. Packed in they just look dull, dark and dreary. Less light in, less colour out. Pay a visit to the Baccus site to see some outstanding work. All the great looking figures are on bigger bases.

Best regards,

Glenn

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP01 Feb 2016 7:01 p.m. PST

First question is always "what's the smallest base you can comfortably handle?" Everything else has to be arranged around that. For myself, I've got some 20x20mm in larger scales where I'm willing to handle the casting--but in 6mm I'm reluctant to go under 1" square, and I'd make very sure the base was thick enough to handle--3mm or 3/32" minimum. A larger--as opposed to thicker--base is a matter of representation, table size and aesthetics.

The next two questions for that are "what size battles do I want to fight?" and "what size table can I count on having?" That gives you your ground scale and the possible commercial rules. When you combine those with minimum base dimensions, you know what your options are.

Personal logo Narratio Supporting Member of TMP01 Feb 2016 7:28 p.m. PST

I originally used teh 60x30mm base size that Baccus offere up on the website. But 24 figures in two ranks didn't seem right.

So I added a third rank and that seemed good.

But then I (and a great bottle of wine) thought – "What about file chasers?" So 4 extra figures were added, one at each end and two in the middle as a fourth rank. That's cool and neat.

But the bottle of wine had invited a friend. And I thought – "Hang on, if I say 80 or 100 men to a company on campaign and a 1:2 or 1:2.5 figure ratio, I can get 40 x Baccus 6mm on a 60x30mm base and look really cool. Yeah! That's THE business.

Dense pack. A path to madness.

LeonAdler Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Feb 2016 11:44 p.m. PST

No basing system for any rules means anything at all. Ignore them. Generally they exist so as to get you to commit to a particular rules set. Base how you think looks right and as close to the 'correct' scale as you can. My French are on 30x15 bases for two companies ( 12 figs, 3 ranks)and two 15x15 for the elites.
These bases can then be popped on movement tray/sabots that can be sized to a particular set of rules if needed.
Just making movement trays for Blucher at the moment.
link
L

normsmith02 Feb 2016 2:13 a.m. PST

If your games are going to need companies represented, then that is the way you need to go with your basing.

I prefer larger bases, though I like to be able to see line, March column, assault column and square represented on the table, however, I am increasingly thinking of larger generic basing and just using markers or the system to show various tactical formations.

Aesthetically, I have never liked to see a large base that looks like line using road movement, but these days I see that as a worthwhile compromise in the smaller scales.

Edwulf02 Feb 2016 3:50 p.m. PST

Im not a fan of the large base with a unit permanently fixed in line look myself. I like to see lines, squares and columns being on the table.

So it will depend on which rules sets you want to play. While black powder says basing doesn't matter you do need to change formation. Polemos, for example, with one unit on a base can be a battalion OR a brigade and formations are irrelevant. A battalion based for black powder could be used for another ruleset. You just don't need to change formation. I unit based for polemos though COULD be used for BP… But you would need to remember what every unit is doing or make formation markers or something. A little extra work.

Asthetically the larger bases give you a lot more scope for adding casualties, mounted officers, terrain, skirmishers but for me that asthetic can be lost when said unit can't fit on a road/bridge or when you have a brigade marching in column down a road and they are all in line…

Whirlwind03 Feb 2016 1:50 a.m. PST

I unit based for polemos though COULD be used for BP… But you would need to remember what every unit is doing or make formation markers or something. A little extra work.

I use the bigger Polemos standard bases and have found in practice that I could remember what formation units were in and stopped using markers or rosters. The reason for this is that a "typical" Black Powder game (as in the example games in the book) have about 20 units per side in, with maybe 50-60% of them infantry and because you actually state which formation the units are in, it is easy to remember. Other similar-sized games work in the same way.

I wouldn't do this for much larger games (i.e. with much larger numbers of units) or in a competition though! But for friendly and solo games, absolutely not a problem.

Martin Rapier03 Feb 2016 6:43 a.m. PST

"My French are on 30x15 bases for two companies"

Yes, 30x15 works well. I did all my WSS stuff on 30x15, then you can use two bases to represent all the possible formations: line (two abreast), attack column/supported line (one behind the other), square (bases back to back). The only compromise is march column which needs the bases end to end, but with small scale stuff it looks OK.

This is all predicated on rules which allow you to treat 'units' fairly generically though, and not start counting companies/figures.

Glenn Pearce03 Feb 2016 6:50 a.m. PST

Hello Whirlwind!

As you know I only use the standard Polemos base 60mm x 30mm. I rarely play other rule sets anymore. Some of my friends and colleagues play BP and other rule sets using the same bases. What some of them have decided to do was simply adopt the Polemos rule "units are always in the best formation possible for the situation at hand". That way they don't need markers or have to even worry about formations that are really the domain of junior officers that their not actually playing. When it becomes an issue the player simply declares what formation their in. The time to change formation etc. by some rules is also just ignored. They tell me it actually makes their games move along faster. Almost as fast as a Polemos game.

Best regards,

Glenn

Whirlwind03 Feb 2016 7:13 a.m. PST

Hello Glenn,

I too mainly play Polemos, plus Horse, Foot and Guns and Grande Armee which use similar basing. But I do play Neil Thomas' Napoleonic rules from time-to-time and have found exactly the same as your colleagues: it just doesn't end up being much of a problem.

I do find that rules which require casualty removal are more difficult to use, however.

Glenn Pearce03 Feb 2016 7:14 a.m. PST

Hello normsmith!

"Aesthetically, I have never liked to see a large base that looks like line using road movement, but these days I see that as a worthwhile compromise in the smaller scales."

That was also a concern of ours when we switched from small bases per unit to a single base. Not to mention we also liked the look of squares, columns, lines as well. Then one fellow pointed out that was because we were preconditioned to look at things that way from our years of gaming. When you look at a map generally the symbols are the same and that looks fine because that's what were used to looking at. When anybody new looks at our table with all the figures on single basing in line formations the first words out of their mouth are "that looks like a picture of a battle from a book" or "that looks exactly like a 3D view of a map from a book". Your road column is also simply a snap shot in time, although moving in road column (when you actually move it), once your finished it simply looks like it has deployed where it is. So your aesthetics are simply the result of your past conditioning. Try and look at it with fresh eyes and it looks so much better.

When we made the change over to single unit basing we had a number of hard core Napoleonic players and still do. Today nobody misses seeing the different formations on the table and nobody misses all the hassles that went with them.

Best regards,

Glenn

Marc the plastics fan03 Feb 2016 10:43 a.m. PST

Smaller bases should work fine. I am not convinced by GPs arguments and think sabot/magna basing will work well with smaller bases

MarbotsChasseurs03 Feb 2016 11:32 a.m. PST

These are not mine link but I base mine just like Mr.Kelly because I still enjoy seeing formation changes and prefer at largest Corps vs Corps games with multiple divisons. He also seemed to figure a way to move the multiple bases per battalion by using movement trays which look great link

Glenn Pearce03 Feb 2016 12:47 p.m. PST

Hello Marc the plastics fan!

The problem is not the use of sabots. It's the source of the problem, small bases. If you have a look at the links provided by MarbotsChasseurs you will find this quote.

"The infantry bases are 25mm x 15mm. I have rebased everything now as they proved to be too small and fiddly, lots of miniatures were getting broken!

Everything is now based up for Blucher 80mm x 60mm brigade bases."

The other point I would like to make here is that if he had retained his 25mm basing times his 6 companies that's a frontage of 150mm. That means his table would have had to be 2.5 times bigger then mine to play the same battles with my battalion frontages of 60mm.

I probably failed to mention but I used 25mm basing for about 30 years and had movement trays that even covered the different formations. It just doesn't work as efficiently as a simple single base per battalion on a 60mm x 30mm base. If this fellow had based as per my suggestion he could have played Blucher as is. Some people use a single 60mm x 30mm base as a brigade for Blucher and other brigade types of games. While others use two of them back to front to represent a brigade in depth or side by side in line.

6mm is a unique scale with a number of unique problems and advantages. Once you fully understand them all some people gravitate to the 60mm x 30mm base and never have to rebase again.

Best regards,

Glenn

yorkie o104 Feb 2016 3:00 p.m. PST

Hi,

The miniatures in the link are mine, and yes they have been rebased.

I really liked the "look" of them on the small bases, the ability to change formation etc, however it just wasnt practical. Just getting them in and out of the storage trays was resulting in lost bayonets and miniatures bent at the ankles!

I have now put them on 80mm x 60mm bases for Blucher, 3 bns per base, some with attached artillery as well. I think they look the part, and the models are much better protected and less likely to be damaged.

I think if I were to base 6mm up to be able to show the different formations, then id go for 40mm x 20mm as a minimum base size, the smaller the base the more fiddly and prone to damage they are…in my opinion of course!

Steve

Joe Rocket05 Feb 2016 11:54 a.m. PST

I have it both ways 3/4" x 1" for battalion games and 30mm x 60mm for brigade games.

Charlie 1206 Feb 2016 6:22 p.m. PST

We use 20mm x 20mm for Age of Empires. Haven't had any problems with broken figures or bayonets. Nor with the "fiddly" multiple stands. Guess it depends on your approach and the rules you use. And, bottomline, basing is pretty much an individual thing with no one system or approach better than another. Whatever works for you.

Glenn Pearce07 Feb 2016 12:52 p.m. PST

I think there are a couple of things in play here. The first is which manufacturer to chose. Some have done a great job in designing their figures in a way that minimizes exposed swords, lances, weak flag poles and bayonets, while others have not. Obviously the well designed ones hold up to wear and tear better then those that aren't.

Next is the size of your base. The smaller it is the more likely you are to have parts hanging over. So your increasing your damage risk factor.

Then there is simply logistics. The more moving parts you have (bases) the more often their likely to be handled, which again increases the damage risk level. Changing formation, etc.

When we used 25mm or roughly 1" squares I actually enjoyed it. It seemed to give me a sense of power, moving all those little blocks, cool. Then we finally took a cold hard look at exactly what was going on. Often players were in control of at least two Divisions, generally more. For infantry that was at least 96 blocks in 16 units, plus artillery. Skilled players were okay, but as you moved down the ladder the speed or ability of the players diminished and the turns dragged out accordingly. So my point here is the smaller your bases are the smaller your games should be, otherwise you could hit a brick wall for time.

Although I personally did not find small bases to be "fiddly", I know others that did. My concern was it did allow some movements to look odd. You were able to weave and bob some of the smaller formation frontages in a manner that looked more like a football game then the movement of large formations.

So our change to larger bases (60x30) yielded a number of benefits:

1) Less damage
2) Less complicated games
3) Faster turns
4) More realistic looking formation movements
5) Better storage and transportation systems
6) Faster set up and take down times
7) Fewer "fiddly" complaints
8) Two base system that works for every period we play
9) New players are often basing the same way
10) We can buy and sell bases on e-bay
11) We can play multiple rule sets without rebasing

MajorB07 Feb 2016 1:19 p.m. PST

So our change to larger bases (60x30) yielded a number of benefits:

1) Less damage
2) Less complicated games
3) Faster turns
4) More realistic looking formation movements
5) Better storage and transportation systems
6) Faster set up and take down times
7) Fewer "fiddly" complaints
8) Two base system that works for every period we play
9) New players are often basing the same way
10) We can buy and sell bases on e-bay
11) We can play multiple rule sets without rebasing

As I said above, all my Napoleonics 6mm figures are on 20mm square bases. I have had none of the problems inferred in the list above.

Glenn Pearce07 Feb 2016 2:54 p.m. PST

How would you know?

Sparta08 Feb 2016 1:57 a.m. PST

I guess it is a matter of taste. I have never seen a wargame with unit fixed formation unit bases, which looked anything like my aesthetic vision of a game.

But if there was only one soulutio to an aesthetic problem, we would never discuss art or women :-)

MajorB08 Feb 2016 7:18 a.m. PST

How would you know?

1) Less damage
None of my figures have ever been damaged.
2) Less complicated games
Games complexity is not a function of base size.
3) Faster turns
I might grant you that one on the basis that you probably have fewer bases, but really it depends on the rules in use and the size of the battle.
4) More realistic looking formation movements
My 20mm bases can form a number of formations for example a road column that is only 20mm wide.
5) Better storage and transportation systems
Again nothng to do with the size of the base.
6) Faster set up and take down times
Yes possibly, if you have less bases in use than I, but that depends on the size of battle being played.
7) Fewer "fiddly" complaints
I haven't a clue what you mean by this one!
8) Two base system that works for every period we play
That would depend on the rules in use for each period.
9) New players are often basing the same way
Only becasue you tell them that it's the only way to base …
10) We can buy and sell bases on e-bay
I have not seen any restrictions on Ebay figure sales to do with base sizes.
11) We can play multiple rule sets without rebasing
So can I.

Glenn Pearce08 Feb 2016 11:54 a.m. PST

Hello MajorB!

Ah, perhaps a better explanation is in order.

1) Less damage
None of my figures have ever been damaged.

GP: That's great for you, but I'm also including figures that get bent due to handling as well as muskets, swords, bayonets, flag poles, plumes, etc. When we used small bases the majority of our collection was made up of H&R. At the end of every game there would be a number of figures that had been bent in towards the center due to careless handling by the players. Over time some of these would simply break off when you tried to straighten them out. However, you're the first 6mm player that I'm aware of to have never experienced damaged figures. You must have the most consciences players on the planet.

2) Less complicated games
Games complexity is not a function of base size.

GP: Indirectly it is. With small base games your generally faced with formation changes. That alone creates a pyramid of complex problems. In most single base games that feature is relegated below the level of the players.

3) Faster turns
I might grant you that one on the basis that you probably have fewer bases, but really it depends on the rules in use and the size of the battle.

GP: One for Glenn! All comparable battles are faster. But it's more than just fewer bases. There are also no formation changes, often fewer movement rates, etc. Less to learn, less to remember, less to do equals faster turns.

4) More realistic looking formation movements
My 20mm bases can form a number of formations for example a road column that is only 20mm wide.

GP: It's battle columns that we identified as our problem. In some situations our battle columns were only made up of two blocks/bases. For battle column that was a frontage of 20-25mm. Those puppies could wiggle all over the place. Even the bigger frontages of 50mm (closer to 40mm) were felt to be a little too easy to move around.

5) Better storage and transportation systems
Again nothng to do with the size of the base.

GP: Ah, but it does. The smaller bases were just awkward to store due to their small size. They were also very light so if your hand moved the wrong way they were all over the place. Whenever I unpacked them from the car it was a miracle when they were still in the same place. The 60x30 base is much heavier, rarely moves unless given a severe jolt. And you move three times as many figures with every movement. So you can add faster as well.

6) Faster set up and take down times
Yes possibly, if you have less bases in use than I, but that depends on the size of battle being played.

GP: Another one for Glenn! No question, same battle fewer bases. Simple logistics. Another major time saver was when we used small bases you lost a lot of time matching up your casualties with their parent units. It worked out for me to be at least 50% saving in lost time.

7) Fewer "fiddly" complaints
I haven't a clue what you mean by this one!

GP: Over the years a number of players made the same complaint when they first looked at our small bases or at the end of a game. The bases are just too small and "fiddly" to handle. Some considered them no different than using the "fiddly" counters from board games. It seems that some people just don't like to handle small figures on small bases. The only complaints I get now are simply from the people who don't like 6mm. It does not matter to them what bases their on.

8) Two base system that works for every period we play
That would depend on the rules in use for each period.

GP: Yes, it does, but so far it works for us and a number of my colleagues.

9) New players are often basing the same way
Only becasue you tell them that it's the only way to base …

GP: No, they are mostly experienced Polemos players, Baccus customers, or have moved here from the UK where they used similar rules. Most of them never even heard of me before.

10) We can buy and sell bases on e-bay
I have not seen any restrictions on Ebay figure sales to do with base sizes.

GP: Of course not, but those who surf ebay know that it's a base size that is easily bought and sold. In other words there is a market for them.

11) We can play multiple rule sets without rebasing
So can I.

GP: Hooray, one for MajorB!

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB08 Feb 2016 1:52 p.m. PST

I'm also including figures that get bent due to handling as well as muskets, swords, bayonets, flag poles, plumes, etc. When we used small bases the majority of our collection was made up of H&R. At the end of every game there would be a number of figures that had been bent in towards the center due to careless handling by the players. Over time some of these would simply break off when you tried to straighten them out.

I can only assume that some of your players are extremely ham fisted to damage the figures in the way you describe. All my figures are H&R.

The smaller bases were just awkward to store due to their small size.

Why? I don't find my bases awkward to store. On the contrary, their small size makes them easy to store.

No question, same battle fewer bases.

Not necessarily. It depends on the representational scale. How many bases to the battalion?

The bases are just too small and "fiddly" to handle.

I just find this hard to believe. How small were your "small bases"?

No, they are mostly experienced Polemos players,

But of course Polemos is designed for 60x30 bases so that's no surprise.

but those who surf ebay know that it's a base size that is easily bought and sold. In other words there is a market for them.

As is equally true for any other base size.

Charlie 1208 Feb 2016 5:34 p.m. PST

That's great for you, but I'm also including figures that get bent due to handling as well as muskets, swords, bayonets, flag poles, plumes, etc. When we used small bases the majority of our collection was made up of H&R. At the end of every game there would be a number of figures that had been bent in towards the center due to careless handling by the players. Over time some of these would simply break off when you tried to straighten them out. However, you're the first 6mm player that I'm aware of to have never experienced damaged figures. You must have the most consciences players on the planet.

You can add 12 people to MajorB. My group has over 8000 stands (ACW and Naps), all H&Rs. And none of us have ever had problems with broken figures. And some of these stands are over 20 years old. We've had more problems with damage in shipping from the retailer than anything else.

Ah, but it does. The smaller bases were just awkward to store due to their small size. They were also very light so if your hand moved the wrong way they were all over the place. Whenever I unpacked them from the car it was a miracle when they were still in the same place. The 60x30 base is much heavier, rarely moves unless given a severe jolt. And you move three times as many figures with every movement. So you can add faster as well.

Not a problem for us. We use magnetic sheet material under each stand and transport them in metal bottomed trays. I can turn the tray upside down and with no stands effected. I might add, I've traveled by air using this system multiple times and have never had a stand shift.

Like I said before, it all depends on what rules you play and personal choice. If rules use the larger base (or can be adapted to), then use that base. For my group, the larger base is a non-starter since we play a whole lot of AoE, FnF and RFnF which plays best with the smaller base.

And finally, there really isn't any one perfect size. Its just a matter of personal taste and choice. Whatever you like, use. But please don't lecture me on the "one perfect base size".

Charlie 1208 Feb 2016 5:42 p.m. PST

But if there was only one soulution to an aesthetic problem, we would never discuss art or women :-)

Hmmmmm…. You do have a point there!

Glenn Pearce09 Feb 2016 8:30 a.m. PST

Hello MajorB!

"Why? I don't find my bases awkward to store. On the contrary, their small size makes them easy to store."

It was always their small size. Trying to get your fingers into any box and get a grip on the base without damaging the figures was always a challenge.

"Not necessarily. It depends on the representational scale. How many bases to the battalion?"

We varied it, for big battles we sometimes only used three bases, but the more common one was six bases with some Austrians going up to nine.

"I just find this hard to believe. How small were your "small bases"?"

The smallest ones we ever used were 7/8" x 5/8", but could contain 18 figures.

"But of course Polemos is designed for 60x30 bases so that's no surprise."

I never said it was a surprise. Would you not expect a club that plays Polemos would attract Polemos players.

"but those who surf ebay know that it's a base size that is easily bought and sold. In other words there is a market for them.

As is equally true for any other base size."

Not exactly, other sizes are generally only listed by individuals who are selling them and only appear sporadically. Because there is a bigger market for 60x30 commercial painters sell them as well as individuals. If you want to buy 60x30 figures on ebay you often can, other sizes are more of a challenge.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce09 Feb 2016 9:17 a.m. PST

Hello Charlie 12!

Well I'm not sure exactly what numbers mean, but our collection has been handled by at least a couple of hundred people. Could be as high as 500. Our club alone presently has 25 members with a few hundred having come through the doors over the years. Our collection is close to 40 years old with about 40,000 figures.

Oddly enough my experience with retailers has had a very low damage profile.

Keep in mind that all it takes is one person to cause damage. Over the years I've had people hand me entire stands with broken figures. On the other hand I also have a large collection of Irregular figures, mainly their blocks which you can drop on the floor and not cause any damage.

We used magnetic bases for awhile, but found damage was easily caused when trying to remove the bases from their securement.

"For my group, the larger base is a non-starter since we play a whole lot of AoE, FnF and RFnF which plays best with the smaller base."

We found the exact opposite. We conducted some tests on a small base rule system. I think it was on FnF. First we played a battle using FnF with small bases. Then we played the same battle using a modified Polemos system with bigger bases. The rules were actually very similar, but the second game played much faster with similar results. The first game the players stated it felt tedious and slow which seems to support the conclusion that if nothing else a bigger base game will generally play faster. Which we translated as "better".

"And finally, there really isn't any one perfect size. Its just a matter of personal taste and choice. Whatever you like, use. But please don't lecture me on the "one perfect base size"."

I can see that. I will add, however, to the best of my knowledge there is only one 6mm manufacturer that has designed, sells and promotes a single basing system for the use of their figures and that's Baccus6mm with their 60x30 family of bases. That's a fact, not a lecture.

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB09 Feb 2016 9:31 a.m. PST

It was always their small size. Trying to get your fingers into any box and get a grip on the base without damaging the figures was always a challenge.

Your boxes are too deep then. That and a gentle touch …

"Not necessarily. It depends on the representational scale. How many bases to the battalion?"

We varied it, for big battles we sometimes only used three bases, but the more common one was six bases with some Austrians going up to nine.

Ah, well you see my rules are 1 base is a battalion so for a similar sized battle I have anywhere between 1/3 and 1/6 the number of bases that you do.

"I just find this hard to believe. How small were your "small bases"?"

The smallest ones we ever used were 7/8" x 5/8", but could contain 18 figures.

So still bigger than my 20mm square bases!! Your definition of "too fiddly" is wildly different to mine.

MajorB09 Feb 2016 9:36 a.m. PST

Over the years I've had people hand me entire stands with broken figures. On the other hand I also have a large collection of Irregular figures, mainly their blocks which you can drop on the floor and not cause any damage.

Hmm … I wonder whether your problem is lead rot rather than rough handling?

I will add, however, to the best of my knowledge there is only one 6mm manufacturer that has designed, sells and promotes a single basing system for the use of their figures and that's Baccus6mm with their 60x30 family of bases. That's a fact, not a lecture.

Yes. Only one. And that is because his house rule sets are designed for that size base and for no other reason.

And actually, no, Pete does not "promote a single basing system". Not that long ago I bought a large quantity of Ancient figures from him. Narry a word about best base sizes or anything. Just a pleasure to do business with.

Glenn Pearce09 Feb 2016 9:53 a.m. PST

"Yes. Only one. And that is because his house rule sets are designed for that size base and for no other reason.

And actually, no, Pete does not "promote a single basing system". Not that long ago I bought a large quantity of Ancient figures from him. Narry a word about best base sizes or anything. Just a pleasure to do business with."

I think your key word was "designed".

Why would you expect him to say anything about bases if you never asked him about them. He certainly does not hard sell anything and that's partly why it's always a pleasure to do business with him.

MajorB09 Feb 2016 10:01 a.m. PST

I think your key word was "designed".

Yes indeed. But he does not slag off every other base size as being less than perfect. It's just a prefernce of choice, not the be all and end all.

Glenn Pearce09 Feb 2016 10:40 a.m. PST

Sorry MajorB, but obviously you don't understand his philosophy on basing.

MajorB09 Feb 2016 11:11 a.m. PST

Sorry MajorB, but obviously you don't understand his philosophy on basing.

I don't? Perhaps you could enlighten me? He seems to sell quite a variety of different sizes. And on the web site he says this:

"This system means that any size can be used for bases, so no rebasing is required so long as both sides are consistent. We believe that a 60mm x 30mm base gives the best results in terms of both practical use and visual impact."
link
(my emphasis)

That sounds like his philosphy on basing to me. Nothing restrictive about that is there?

Glenn Pearce09 Feb 2016 11:50 a.m. PST

Hello MajorB!

Why wouldn't you sell other base sizes? It's good business is it not? I never said it was restrictive.

It does, however, look like you emphasised the wrong phrase. The key sentence in your entire quote is obviously "We believe that a 60mm x 30mm base gives the best results in terms of both practical use and visual impact." That says it all does it not? Why would you want to use another base size that does not give you the best practical use and visual impact? If you do, obviously he considers it inferior.

If you really want to search his site you should be able to find his most famous quote or words to that effect "other base sizes are the work of the devil". Which is not even close to an endorsement of other base sizes.

Consider yourself enlightened!

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB10 Feb 2016 1:31 a.m. PST

It does, however, look like you emphasised the wrong phrase. The key sentence in your entire quote is obviously "We believe that a 60mm x 30mm base gives the best results in terms of both practical use and visual impact." That says it all does it not?

No, it doesn't. "The best" does not mean thou shalt use this base size to the exclusion of all else. If that were true then the phrase I highlighted above would be a lie.

If you really want to search his site you should be able to find his most famous quote or words to that effect "other base sizes are the work of the devil". Which is not even close to an endorsement of other base sizes.

I did search his site, but couldn't find anything that says that other base sizes are the work of the devil. But even if I had found such a statement, then that would just mean that he is contradicting himself.

Frankly this whole thing is laughable. Do you really believe that Pete Berry is the fount of all knowledge on wargaming and that his rules are the wargaming equivalent of the Ten Commandments?

Glenn Pearce10 Feb 2016 12:36 p.m. PST

Hello MajorB!

I'm terribly sorry and must apologize, as obviously I failed to enlighten you.

"No, it doesn't. "The best" does not mean thou shalt use this base size to the exclusion of all else. If that were true then the phrase I highlighted above would be a lie."

"a lie", perish that thought! I can only conclude that it's the result of my inadequate enlightenment.

Let me try and give it another go. You can use almost any base you want. You can also use any scale. Mr. Berry and his collection of brilliant, but humble authors realized that the best way to design a wargame rule set was to serve as broad of an audience as possible. So that's why the phrase "any size can be used" is included. And of course you can. It's simply just another brilliant facet of these well designed rules.

"the best", I know this will probably sound strange or uncomplicated, but oddly enough means just that, "the best". If you want "the best" results in terms of both practical use and visual impact use 60mm x 30mm. Obviously if you don't want or don't have "the best", you can use any size you want as I mentioned above. Again, another brilliant design feature of the rules. You can use any basing you want, but if you want to get "the best" out of the rules, then use "the best" 60mm x 30mm. This simply lets those players who have not yet experienced "the best" to still play the game. It's certainly a brilliant concept that lets all players enjoy the wonderment of Polemos without having to wait until they can convert over to "the best".

"I did search his site, but couldn't find anything that says that other base sizes are the work of the devil."

Sorry, again my fault, that is one of his famous sayings and can be found in his correspondence.

"But even if I had found such a statement, then that would just mean that he is contradicting himself."

Never happened, one statement refers to the application of all bases within his rules system and the other clarifies his personal thoughts. Two different subjects.

"Frankly this whole thing is laughable."

I agree, but I suspect for different reasons.

"Do you really believe that Pete Berry is the fount of all knowledge on wargaming"

Well if you want one for 6mm, I can't think of a better candidate. You have already acknowledged that he was "Just a pleasure to do business with." I realize that you were probably thinking of me, but I think he's the better choice.

"and that his rules are the wargaming equivalent of the Ten Commandments?"

Let's not bring religion into this. It will only result in silly endless debates. I will say, however, whenever 6mm Napoleonic rules come up his are always in the top ten!

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB10 Feb 2016 3:03 p.m. PST

It's simply just another brilliant facet of these well designed rules.

As do many many other rules.

Again, another brilliant design feature of the rules. You can use any basing you want, but if you want to get "the best" out of the rules,

A meaningless statement unless you define what "the best" means.

Sorry, again my fault, that is one of his famous sayings and can be found in his correspondence.

What correspondence? What anyone says in personal correspondence is not public knowledge.

Never happened, one statement refers to the application of all bases within his rules system and the other clarifies his personal thoughts.

Personal thoughts are irrelevant here.

Well if you want one for 6mm, I can't think of a better candidate.

I can.

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