"28mm realistic with my table? Prices of 28 mm" Topic

I've got a table setup of 8,5 by 6 feet. Would it be realistic to use 28 mm figures for reasonably sized battles (Napoleonic and AWI for starters) with my equipment? There is a possibility that I could buy some more wood to expand the table to 11 or 12 feet long, but that would really be pushing the space of the room.

Just wondering because painting 25/28 mm might be more tolerable than going for 15 mm or smaller scales.

Let's say I need 300 figures total for a Napoleonic/AWI battle. At 2 euros per figure I'm looking at 600 euros. I might be able to live with that, hobbies cost money. Which manufacturer gives me the figures at 2 euros a piece?

Looks like Old glory gives me 30 figures for 25 pounds (1 pound = 1,30 euros) so that might be the best deal I can get.

If price is an issue, check out Old Glory. But your table should be fine for 28's. What figure/man ratio are you considering?

For AWI I will be using 1:20/25 ratio, but naturally the battles are smaller anyway. I'm looking at Warfare in the Age of Reason for rules.

For napoleonic I bought (somewhat complex Revolution & Empire) 1:50 rules, but I haven't decided on using them yet.

I will have to decide which era to game first since I can't afford the double cost of figures. I'm hoping to be ready for gaming in the spring/summer so I've got a couple of months of prep time left.

8.5x6 feet6 is more then enouh for 300 vs 300, some people will fit close to 1000 28mm on a table like that, while others think 500 is a good size. if you expand to 12 feet we are talking room for 1500 28mm.

For price plastic is best, Both AWI and Napoelonics are avalable in plastics.

In plastic you have

Napoleonic
French line infantry(I think like 5 diffrent french line infantry boxes are avalable)
Russian line(two boxes)
Austrian line, grandiers, landwehr ect. Like 4 or 5 boxes.
Prussian line and landwehr 2 boxes.
British line/light like 5 or 6 boxes including highlanders
Polish line.
French guards(both old and middle)
I think portguise too.

For cavalry you have
French dragoons(waterloo)
French chessuers(waterloo)
British light dragoons(spain and waterloo)
French cuirassiers and carabiners(same box, post 1810)
French hussars
British hussars

British and french artillery(3 boxes)
So depending on what period and what country, you could do most in plastic. French at waterloo could be done almost completly in plastic(short of guard cavalry units)

For the AWI you have have british, american continental, milita, hessains, artillery all in plastic. Only cavarly missing.

The price of plastics are from about 40p to 80p With Victrix beeing cheapest, perry in the middle and warlord overpriced.

I think your space will be fine for 28s. One way to think about it for yourself though is calculating how wide a unit will be and then determining how many of those units you can get.

For example, if your units are 16 figs wide, that's probably 320mm. Each unit is a little over a foot wide, so that would be 8 units wheel to wheel on your table, less if you want gaps between them.

If price is an issue, 28mm might not be your best bet. 150 figures a side is 8 or 9 units a side. For an 8 by 6 with smallish units (16 man double ranked infantry units, 8 man cavalry units), I'd say you are looking at more like 300 per side for a decent clash. An 8 x 6 would be OK for that.

I played on an 8 by 6 for years with 28mm figures. I collected 28 unit SYW armies which worked well, typically choosing to fight armies of 20 – 24 unit a side using the collections. (i.e. some units not used for force variation).

For Napoleonics I'm afraid that 150 a side isn't enough. My table is now 12 x 6 and I'm about to start painting the figures for my Peninsular War collection – I went for Front Rank. For this I've bought, as an initial order, Anglo Portugese and French:

36 x 24 man infantry units
8 x 12 man cavalry units
6 x 3 gun artillery batteries with some limbers
About 160 extra skirmishers
Officers for command group leader stands.

That's about 1200 figures. And that's only 3/4 bought and that's before any Spanish. This might sound a lot, but experience tells me this is about right for versatile and flexible forces for a 12 x 6 table. My three SYW collections are now 50+ units a side (around 800 figures each) – I can fight most scenarios and a lot of historic battles at reasonable scaling with forces that size.

Honestly, if the budget is tight, go for a smaller scale, at least you'll be able to afford small ongoing enlargements without fretting about the spend. I bought just a few extra 28mm bits and pieces at Christmas and it cost nearly £200.00 GBP

Lastly, and this tip is slightly more constructive. Do everything in one scale – that way you only need one lot of trees, roads, bridges, rivers, etc.

olicana: 300 figures per side is about 800 euros if they're Old Glory for example. The time it takes to paint them learning new techniques on the way will be a lot. Going to have to think about this.

Suddenly AWI seems so much more appealing.

Don't forget terrain. That will add to your cost, though AWI generally seems to be played with fewer buildings and expensive items than Napoleonic.

It's very cheap entertainment!

300 vs 300 plastic figrues would be about €435.00 EUR

I say the visual aspects of the game matter -- that is part of why I enjoy the hobby. All due respect to anyone who games smaller than 25mm, but I just like the look of 28mm/30mm and will bear the "costs" to game at that level i.e. cost of figures, cost of terrain, cost of space to pull that off. I admit the space issue is very real. 15mm is much less hassle for storage and gaming. But image the old days of 54mm! If space is an issue, 15mm does work.

I have an American Revolution Collection of over 1,200 40mm figures and I game on a 15'x5' table so I am sure an 8'x5' table will accommodate 600 25mm figures.

If cost really is an issue,and you don't want to go down to 15mm,don't overlook 1/72 plastic. There are masses of them available for Napoleonics. You can check them out on the excellent Plastic Soldier Review site.

Can't see a problem with your table size. My little group of 6 play on a similar sized table and play 18th century games with about 50 cavalry and 150 cavalry per side, but could fit in more. Don't agree with those who say 150 per side is not enough- it surely depends on which rules you are using and what level of game you are playing (brigade/divisional/ Corps etc). If an infantry "unit" is considered to be a brigade you can easily play a corps level game with that number of figures.
Personally, I prefer 15/18 mm. AB figures and some of the newcomers are the equal of many 28mm ranges in terms of detail. The sheer number of figures you can get onto your size of table generates spectacle.

I'm fortunate to have a 12'6" x 6' table for my Peninsular 28MM gaming. My rules of choice is General de Brigade, typically with 500+ figures per side. This give me room for maneuver and flank attackes. Jamming up the table from side to side without room to maneuver was a big consideration for me.

Okay, anyone familiar with the logo heading this entry who is a dyed-in-the-wool advocate of 28mm figures and is familiar with my posts will probably have turned off by now, but please do keep reading. Sometimes I feel like the only attendee at a Flat Earth conference holding a globe and trying to attract attention…

BPmasher asks three basic questions:

Is an 8.5 x 6 foot table big enough for 28mm games in Naps and AWI?

If not would I have to expand the size of my table?

Which (28mm) manufacturer gives the best bang for bucks when looking at around 300 figures?

The problem is that by only looking at one (28mm) option you end up channeling the same answers and solutions, none of which provide satisfactory answers.

Yes, you can use the OP's table quite nicely for games of this size, but the elbow room required by the big figures will inevitably cut down on the room for manouevre and tactical options. 150 figures per side is not a particularly large pair of Napoleonic armies and if ever a period demands megolamania then it is this one. If you find that the only tactical options allowed by your army/table size are to stand, move forward or move backward then games become very samey.

Adding an extra few feet to the table may seem an option, but it is a very drastic measure and, like adding an extra lane to a motorway, is only a temporary expedient, as the amount of traffic simply expands to fill the available space.

As for costs, well, these have been covered by the posts above. To get a decent sized force you need more than the original 300 limit and it all costs a lot more than you think, especially when you start adding terrain. Talking of terrain, don't forget that those very pretty but massive and overscale 28mm buildings eat a disproportionately large amount of your precious available wargaming table area.

Then there is the Elephant in the Room that no-one has mentioned. Painting two armies from scratch. A very conservative suggestion would be that each 28mm figure takes an hour of painting time. Given that 300 figures per side seems to be a more realistic figure, that is a minimum of 600 hours painting time required. I wouldn't worry too much about the costs as these can be spread over two or three years…

My answer to all of these issues is, quite naturally, think laterally and go smaller. 15/18mm has already been mentioned, but I must put the pitch in for something even smaller and suggest that 6mm answers all of the issues.

The OP's table size will offer great scope for 6mm gaming. The smaller unit footprints means that games can be played where armies have hanging flanks and therefore must deploy in depth as well as width and that reserves become both meaningful and essential. No more just line 'em up and move 'em forward.

Costs are much reduced. For example, a 6mm Napoleonic starter army of 400 or so figures plus artillery weighs in at less than £33.00 GBP. You can realistically play Napoleonic games with corps, not just brigades. Scenic costs are similarly cost efficient and buildings can be used to give realistically proportioned areas on the battlefield.

I know that the OP states that, 'painting 25/28 mm might be more tolerable than going for 15 mm or smaller scales', but it all depends on what is meant by 'tolerable'. Painting 6mm is actually much, much easier than painting the bigger figures and infinitely quicker. At a rate of two battalions a night (48 figures), the 600 figure mark can take less than a month to reach. Then you can really kick in and build proper armies.

It's all a matter of 'Horses for courses', but to reach for the same old solution (28mm all the way under all circumstances) may not be the best course of action. A little bit of lateral thinking can really reap great benefits.

Baccus raises several good points.

At the end of the day it's down to preferences. I use 28mm for almost everything. I don't do it because they give a better game. I don't do it because I like spending money. I do it because I like the heft of a stand of metal 28mm figures, I like big trees, buildings, etc. I like the 'toy soldier' aspect of 28mm games. Oh, and I'm quite good at painting them. These took a little over half an hour each, BTW. 6mm can't ever look like this using only the naked eye.

6mm can look quite pretty.

I use 28mm for AWI and 6mm for Napoleonic.

I feel like your direct questions aren't necessarily being readily answered…

I game on an 8x4 and it works out for 28mm AWI, though of course we could do more with a larger table… So 8x6 should work well. Check out Cowpens for a good fight to start, not too crazy in space or figures.

Go 25/28mm plastic. Today it would be Warlord and Perry. They're cheaper than metals, but you'll need to fill in with some metals (like Tarleton's crew, for example, aren't in plastic).

Warlord is still digesting Wargames Factory, but when they offer them again, those are a good option for figures also.

Fighting Cowpens using the abbreviated list in the "Rebellion" supplement for Warlord's Black Powder, we use a little over 300 figures, most of which are plastic, so it's not as huge an investment – the time when we dove in was the killer. We had to paint for a while to get to even smaller battles. If you're uncertain which battle to start with, I'd suggest one of the "Revolution starter kits" (army in a box) from Perry or Warlord, though shop around, prices vary wildly.

HTH!
Don.

A counter argument on the plastics – they have, in my experience, no resale value. Which may or may not matter to you. And don't lock yourself into 25/28 mm. There are other options out there to explore – even if cost isn't an issue. I think 28 mm really only works for skirmish or very small actions. If you want scope and improved ground scale, go smaller. There are good arguments for 15, 10 (very good arguments), and 6 mm. My preference is 15 mm but if I were starting today, I'd go with 10 mm. With the vast number of figures I own, that isn't a practical option.

A counter argument on the plastics – they have, in my experience, no resale value. Which may or may not matter to you. And don't lock yourself into 25/28 mm. There are other options out there to explore – even if cost isn't an issue. I think 28 mm really only works for skirmish or very small actions. If you want scope and improved ground scale, go smaller. There are good arguments for 15, 10 (very good arguments), and 6 mm. My preference is 15 mm but if I were starting today, I'd go with 10 mm. With the vast number of figures I own, that isn't a practical option.

Oh, and if you stay with AWI you will join a friendly fraternity – rumor has it Napoleonics aren't as friendly (though I haven't seen it personally).

Thanks for all the comments guys. I think I'm going with AWI since it's a less serious investment to start with. I'll buy sample packs of both 25mm and 15/18mm and see how they look when I've painted them.

Plenty of room for AWI. We have played on as little space as 6x4 using Black Powder and routinely play on 8x4 or my 9x5 Ping pong table.

Here is the recent Battle of Trenton done on my 9x5 table:

link

As for figures there are many options at a reasonable price.

I concur Old Glory is a good start and have many of their figures which fit in well with other manufactures such as Perry, Foundry, Wargames Factory etc.

If you are looking for a deal I encourage you to check out OldGlory25s:

oldglory25s.com/index.php

It sounds like the OP is overseas, so you would want to check out the shipping as that may negate the cost benefit. U.S. buyers it is a flat $9 USD per orders under $500. USD

The kicker is if you pay a one time yearly fee for $50 USD to join the Old Glory Army you get some free figs and 40% off all orders for a year. We make up the $50 USD in our first order. Really great if you have a group you are buying for. Our group is into several periods and Old Glory 25s cover them all AWI, Zulu WWI and WWII. They also have multiple scales if you decide 25/28mm is not for you.

My Current collection contains both Plastics and Metals and is approaching 900+ figures for AWI. IMO metals are more durable, but some of the new plastic kits look really nice.

As mentioned above your unit size has a lot to do with the space you need. We use the Black Powder rules for AWI currently with units sizes 12/small, 16/standard and 20/large mounted 2 figs on a 1.5" x .75" metal base. A standard unit of 16 figs gives a nice 6" frontage and looks good on the table.

Here are a few pics from the Freeman's farm scenario I ran at a Con in October. I believe just about all these figs are Old Glory.

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Have fun!

afilter: I can get Old Glory via oldgloryuk.com. I posted about wanting to buy samples via the marketplace but no bites as of yet. Might have to put in a regular order. I've looked at pics of Old Glory minis and I like how they look painted.

Early Morning Writer: good point about resale value,if that is a consideration. But I wonder if,with more and more 25mm plastics coming out,which must mean they're gaining increasing acceptance, we won't see resale going up also.

On the other hand, resale value is based,at least in part, on the cost of the original figures,so if plastics are cheaper,in some cases much cheaper, than lead,that will be reflected in the resale prices.

The problem there is that it takes just as long to paint a plastic figure as a more expensive metal one,so the return on time/effort investment would less,as well, "unfairly" so,one might think. Hmm…

I'd go smaller; on a table like that I could put a Russian or Austrian Corp and still have room to maneuver. I don't enjoy meat grinder games:

link

The table size you mention is good for any scale. I have gone with 15mm for ACW, FPW, Naps, because the battles are so large.

But for the AWI I use 28mm. The battles are mostly small affairs and there are some really great looking figures available. I recommend Perry and Foundry figures.

Bpmasher,

If you plan to do AWI IMO you cannot go wrong with Old Glory. The only compliant would be limited poses in a single bag of 30 figs.

This is easily fixed my getting various bags and mixing them up in your units. When I buy them with my discount it comes out to $0.72 USD per fig which is a steal for 25/28mm metals.

If you were not across the pond I would send you some samples as I have a few unused laying around.

I started with Old Glory because a friend sold mine had a huge (800+ figs) unused collection very cheap.

I have since added Perry Plastic and Metals as well as War games Factory plastics (Currently sold by Warlords) to my collection and they all look good together.

If doing AWI I would suggest one box each of Perry Plastic as the guide that comes with them is worth the price alone. Included uniform color charts which I found invaluable.

WGF plastics:
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Perry Metals:
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Perry Plastics:
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Perry guide included in box of Plastics:
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HTH,

afilter: Good stuff.