"Map of China's Zones of Control in South China Sea" Topic

Here's a good map that demonstrates well what China is trying to do in the South China Sea, with its territory grabs of the various reefs there, in addition to its grab for undersea oil and gas resources:

As you can see by the SAM and J-10 fighter range rings, they're clearly making a play to project power in the region, and to cut off Japan from its lifeblood of oil imports and other commodities. They'll have to flow via a much longer route if China decides to cut off merchant vessels sailing through the SCS.

Makes me wonder how long it'll be before they make a grab for territory on the other side of the Philippines as well?

I've pointed out before (maybe not on TMP, don't remember) that China accounts for ~20% of humanity, and its neighbors are maybe 10% of humanity COMBINED, so if we are trying to advance the needs of the many/the Greater Good, China securing its lifeline to natural resources should be A Good Thing.

It's often pointed out how much merchant traffic flows through the South China Sea, but I always suspected the vast bulk of it was going to/from China. Thankfully, a recent article did the research for me: link

If 80% of humanity is not Chinese, and the Chinese are disturbing the peace, then the Greater Good is to discourage the one doing the disturbing.

the Chinese are disturbing the peace

If "disturbing the peace" is the metric, the US should have been on the receiving end of a Versailles Treaty a LONG time ago.

Those who live in glass houses…

Noble,
For someone living in Japan, a country responsible for killing and starving to death untold millions over the past 100+ years, raping, looting, meddling in foriegn affairs, and still denying citizenship to the ethnic Koreans forcibly brought to Japan as slave laborers 100 years ago… perhaps your lecturing should start in your own home.

There are two problems with what China is doing.

A. it wants to close off the sea lines of communications (Sea Lanes of Communication) that the world uses for shipping.

B. It is using the threat of force to take over areas claimed by other countries, and, related to the above, the threat of force to prevent the international use of the SLOCs.

And those SLOCs have always been available to China (international waterways) so creating islands, taking areas claimed by others, and threatening force to "defend" something they could already use doesn't make sense regardless of how much shipping goes to China.

Let's face it, this is a blatant "land grab" by China to take resources (oil) from other countries.

And we can all go back in history to cherry pick historical facts to fit our current political narrative, but the question is do we allow abuses to go forward today?

+1 raylev3!

"do we allow abuses to go forward today?"

Do we really think that the borders of all nations as they exist today can be frozen in perpetuity?

Do we really think that the borders of all nations as they exist today can be frozen in perpetuity?

Maybe not, but do we want to encourage or reward nations for using force or the threat of force to take land from others, or to settle border disputes? Heck, that kind of thinking went out with WW2 (over generalization), but Russia and China are using force today to take land from others or to resolve their so-called border disputes.

My real concern with the South China Sea scenario is that either China has to back down, or all the nations in the region have to relinquish their claims. And the US and it's allies would have to give up the international right to freedom of navigation in that area. Or does a war break out….

perhaps your lecturing should start in your own home.

Living in Okinawa, I rarely encounter Japanese nationalists, but when I do, trust me I take every opportunity to in their corn flakes….rice bowls?

it wants to close off the sea lines of communications (Sea Lanes of Communication) that the world uses for shipping.

Citation needed. So far the only party planning to close off the South China Sea is the US: ( link )

this is a blatant "land grab" by China to take resources (oil) from other countries

China's current oil import routes:

Drinking up dead dinosaurs from halfway across the planet is, at the global macroeconomic level, a huge inefficiency. Not to mention it forces a "national interest" in the producers, which, as we've seen with US oil interests in the Middle East, has all sorts of nasty 2nd and 3rd effects.

but do we want to encourage or reward nations for using force or the threat of force to take land from others, or to settle border disputes?

Are land disputes less legitimate than economic/financial power struggles? The US has used military force to overthrow two oil-exporting governments that threatened the Petrodollar (Iraq and Libya). If the West is leading by example, the example that's being set is "Carry a bigger stick and you can do anything." And yet we are surprised when other powers go down the same path?

Your argument is all over the place. First, you keep bringing up the US, but it's China's actions in the South China Sea that are creating the problem. It is the one building islands and taking over territory claimed by other nation's in the area, and are threatening force to intimidate others.

Your graphic on where China gets its oil is cute, but it only reinforces another reason China is forcing its way into the South China Sea -- to access the resources in the region.

You seem to keep trying to deflect the issue of China's aggressiveness away from China's actions and onto the US…that is a totally separate issue for discussion, and irrelevant to China's actions.

It comes across that you agree China should use force and intimidation against its neighbors, from Japan in the north to the Philippines, to Indonesia, etc.