"Prussian cuirassiers Menzel versus Horath" Topic

Again a discussion of sources, Menzel shows 1786 cut of cloth, using existing original items of that date – and please compare to picture manuccript paintings from the superb Hohrath book

Menzel first

again my immaginastion about 7YW Prussian cuirassiers was shaped by that – and not only mine – Knötel, Menzel, Kossak

Here a full scale "mannequin" of former Zeughaus before WW2
showing some original items

After such original items Menzel drew his excellent plates -

out of the above originals the tunic did survive and here a photo alongside the picute manucscript of the 7YW from Hohrath

The change of the cut of cloth is immediately apparent – in 1786 much more to the back and also shorter, as well again the hat – compared to the Menzel plates and the original items.

When the tunic was closed (most likley when the cuirass was worn) the difference becomes even more striking

As excellent and as very usefull – brilliant artist anyway – Menzel was, we have to move away to get our immagination shaped by it but should look at those of the picture manuscript shown in the book by Horath.

And – sculptors don't ignore such a valid source.

I would love to paint Prussian cuirassiers sculpted according to it – but it would also create an uproar of outrage (how badly the miniatures whould have been researched) of the numerous self styled experts of the Prussian Army ;-))

I know the feeling. Hohrath is creating extra work for me too. :)

Where can one get one's hands on Hohrath's work?
Thanks
C

For example

Amazon.de

then go for book search

Daniel Hohrath

however there should be an English version as well – suffering apparently from some severe translation errors

for that go to

Amazon.com and

Daniel Hohrath :
Frederick the Great The Uniforms of the Prussian Army under Frederick the Great from 1740 to 1786 (Delux Edition) Hardcover – 2011

you also can find it at abebooks

Many thanks v W, much appreciated
C

I always enjoy others finding "new" data for the old uniforms, and this is remarkable!

I used Old Glory 15's to do a couple hundred Prussians in the Menzel-style uniforms, and about as many Austrians. My favorite period is the Peninsular War 1808-14, so this was a secondary fall-back from the 28-30 mm figures I use for that era. So I have not been "slavish" in my painting, nor careful in the sculpts.

I had an old tin of Humbrol in Polish Crimson, and used it to do the 40th Fusiliers – much darker than others paint. I wonder how Hohrath would display them?

I also did the 35th Prinz Heinrich Fusiliers with a darkened Umber color paint, where I understand "sulfur gelb" is a very pale color. One of the old Knoetel renditions have this as a greenish-earthy yellow, and the coat almost light blue!

I am not inclined to do any more, but it looks like almost all "German" uniforms of the era could be done in 15mm using Austrians for the infantry. Perhaps using Austrian cuirassiers by Old Glory, just adding squared cantlepack with folded cloak on top, behind the rider? Would Prussian cuirassiers have had a sabrestasche during the 7YW?

GdeP

Other than the plume on the hat, I can't discern much difference between the two.

The Menzel figure is in full kit so it is hard to compare the two uniform styles.

In terms of miniatures sculpts, when the rider is seated on the horse and much of the kollet is covered by the cuirasse and the cross belts and thus any differences are even harder to see. Not sure that it matters all that much.

I think that many of us have long accepted the idea that Menzel, et al based their drawings on post SYW uniforms that they modeled their drawings on.

Hohrath is a nice source for uniform information, but why are you so certain that he is 100% correct and everyone else is duff? Since there is no such thing as perfection, maybe Hohrath has made some mistakes too? Who knows for certain.

What is your opinion of Hans Bleckwenn's work?

The illustrations in the Hohrath set are contemporary for the SYW, not drawn decades later. The longer waistcoats and kollets could make sense given the transition from the longer styles of the previous periods. However, opposing this is that the men in some of the manuscript illustrations appear to have long torsos, which may be the cause of the extra length of kollet/waistcoat below the waistline, ie artist error. And to my eye, the surviving period items (kollet/waistcoat) do not appear to share the length of those in the illustrations.

Unfortunately, the surviving uniform items in Hohrath are from 1786, and the cuirassier kollet & waistcoat are shorter, just like a Menzel plate. So we either trust the manuscript illustrations of cuirassiers that appear to show more length in the coats (essentially dragoon length), or we stick with the shorter style shown in the plates from Menzel and the items from the 1780s.

Why I am so sure that Hohrath is right, because he confirms findings of other centemporary pictures and drawings.

The Hohrath volumes show the picture manuscript which is smack on for 7YW plus superb photos of all existing original items of the museum in Berlin and beyond, the clothing – as stressed mostly of 1780 / 1786 period.

What do I tink about Hans Bleckwenn, for sure he would be more than delighted about the work by Hohrath – and I own quite a few Bleckwenn books myself

@snowcat

There is quite a difference of dragoon coats (copy of infantry cut) in contrast to that one of cuirassiers

Other contemporary pictures well agree with the picture manuscript shown in Hohrath.

It was the *length* of the cuirassier coats vs dragoon coats I was referring to – approx the same in the Hohrath illustrations.

"Other contemporary pictures well agree with the picture manuscript shown in Hohrath."

As I own the Hohrath volumes, I'd be very interested in seeing other contemporary pictures supporting the illustrations shown inside the manuscript 'Uniformes Prussiennes et Saxonnes' of 1757/58.

For what its worth the Hohrath are much closer to the Raspe/von Schmalen 1757 edition than Menzel's are.
C.

I agree with Chokidar – Raspe is a poor series to learn about the cut of the cloth and other peculiarities – the pictural manuscript used in Hohrath, is the only contemporary series I know about the Prussian Army – which gives so much detail.

Merta brings in his book – Das Heerwesen in Brandenburg und Preußen von 1640 bis 1806 – Die Uniformierung a very nice "tableau" on the book cover showing each regiment, I couldn't identify the source but it looks pretty much contemporary as well – I posted part of it – in the other thread

As to the cuirassiers, still it would be interesting, even on a miniature – the bigger and longer coat tails, hanging more on the side (in contrast to the later style – more to the rear) as well as the evidently smaller hat.

I cannot comprehend the logic to shut down and block off anything which improves our understanding of how the Prussian Army of the 7YW looked like, the poor Prussians presented in most paintings – are those of 1786 and not of the 7YW.

Needless to say, I am waiting for a good range of Prussians in winter uniform – so one could celebrate the famous winter battles like Leuthen and don't have to show the summer uniform

Schmalen, by design or accident, appears to show cuirassier officers with longer kollet and waistcoat than privates and other ranks.

link

(image 51 onwards)

1759 edition.

could well be, infantry officers had a different coat as NCOs and rank and file, would be worthwhile to persue this topic, I would have to check Kling's work about cuirassiers and dragoons what he has to say about this.

@Snowcat

I realize your irritation about the left open waist coats, Schmalen shows only top part, while a lot of others (including that of Hohrath) shows almost completley open – seemingly it was fashion or army tradition – at Leuthen however – most likley buttoned up – according to winter regulations, so wheather would have a sort of influence as well.

Still I like it – that Black Hussar miniatures did show this in their figures, top notch research (as with their French miniatures as well ;-)).

But check also – for example regiment Bevern, pink turnbacks – indicating pink coat lining, while Hans Bleckwenn and indeed Hohrat – show red

von Winterfeldt, let me know what you find in Kling about the cuirassier officer's possibly longer waistcoats and kollets – this detail is new to me entirely.

Cheers

I will let you know, but that demands "heavy" reading

Could the images of the longer waistcoat possibly be uniforms of the 1740-1748 period?

I've been looking through the Vinkhuizen Collection of Military Uniform plates in the NY Public Library and there are many plates labeled for the WAS. The waistcoat appears to not split below the waist, but rather resembles an upside down "T" with a closed horizontal bottom edge to it. I can't post the pix from work, so I will try to add them to this thread later this evening.

link

What images?

Please look at Preußische Grenadiere at about 1750 – Bleckwenn : Unter dem Preußen Adler – page 178 / 179

or

Tableau der preußischen Armee – um 1770 painting by Petzinger, also in the above volume page 166 / 167

in my view earlier – shows all war formations of 1756 – 1762
/when I have more time – I will show some photos here

compare to

Gudenushandschrift of 1734

all confirm – the picture manuscript as shown in Hohrath

the shorter waistcoats of Menzel are in line with 1780 / 86 general fashion style of all armies

I don't know if Vinhuizen Collection are dated correctly, the sources vary a lot in quality, from cut out Kling plates (what a pity to destroy such a great book by cutting out the immages, to cut outs of regimental histories.

Our problem with the Prussian Army of the 7YW is – that up until very recently all immagination was build up by the great study of Menzel – Knötel, Röchling and others (like Kossak) were heavily influenced by Menzel – so the poor Prussian Army of the 7YW is shown in uniforms of 1786
(typical examples are hat, cut of coat and length of waistcoat, width of lapels as well, placing of the coat tails, length of the coat tails (longer in 1786 than in 7YW)

Look at waistcoats of Gudenus Bilderhandschrift and compare with 7YW – what is your conclusion??

Also look at Bleckwenn's pocket book edition volume 1 page 119 – coat tails more to the side, so that one can see in the rear the waistcoat – quite long

again colour bearer page 191 – here waist coat is buttoned higher up – to support Snowcat and Schmalen – page 155 – lower buttoned waistcoat – longer waist coat – compared to Menzel.

Jim, that waistcoat (in the plate you linked) clearly opens below the waist, sorry. You can see it opening at the bottom. (Besides, who's going to design a waistcoat that doesn't open below the waist…?)

:)

Looks like I need to get a copy of Bleckwenn : Unter dem Preußen Adler.

A comment on Vinkhuizen Collection of Military Uniform plates in the NY Public Library. I took a lot of photos of the originals in the 1970's before they were digitized. Many (if not most) of the 18thC prints were mislabeled as they were cut out of other books and grouped together by nationality.

@Snowcat

According to Kling in his work about cuirassiers and dragoons the cuirassier officer did wear the "long" coat, so yes, seemingly longer that the trooper, I could not get any information about the waistcoat – which was special for cuirassiers anyway, that the length would be different to the trooper

Excellent! Well done. We're onto something here. :)

@snowcat

I have to revise – again my idea about the kollet of the cuirassier officers, I did more reading, it should be according to the troopers kollet – the "white" coat was seemingly not worn along with the cuirass.

Perhaps it is just artistic licence on the part of Schmalen then, or simply accident. The illustrations are a little crude.