"Norman - Pueri?" Topic
9 Posts
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skipper John | 23 Jan 2016 10:32 a.m. PST |
The Gripping Beast packs have a mounted, unarmored rider with a round shield and Javelins. Who the heck are these guys? I thought Normans were chainmail, armored Knights with lance. auction Not mine but a photo of said Pueri. |
Wardlaw | 23 Jan 2016 10:46 a.m. PST |
Pueri means 'boys', and is often used in wargames' army lists to create units of lightly armoured skirmish cavalry. Frankly, there is no evidence for this kind of distinctive unit; the organisation of the Norman army was by households, with younger and more experienced warriors fighting side-by-side, the wealthier/more noble tending to be better equipped. The more lightly equipped troops fought in the same way in the same units. Lances could thrust overarm as well as couched, or even thrown; the weapon was just a longer spear in this period, after all. |
Bellbottom | 23 Jan 2016 11:39 a.m. PST |
On the other hand they would do for Bretons |
French Wargame Holidays | 23 Jan 2016 2:21 p.m. PST |
There are number in the bayuex tapestry, includes light javelin armed and horse archers |
Druzhina | 23 Jan 2016 10:27 p.m. PST |
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skipper John | 24 Jan 2016 12:50 p.m. PST |
Thank you all. A couple of them mixed in and in the rear of the unit then. Perfect! |
Lewisgunner | 31 Jan 2016 11:23 a.m. PST |
Wardlaw might hot have it right. On the Bayeux Tapestry there is a panel where Bishop Odo 'encourages the Pueri ' Now if these boys are not an identifiable unit, but instead are distrbuted fairly evenly through the army tgen he could not just encourage the pueri, but would have to be encouraging the milites of one of the units , knights, cavaliers and pueri. The best sense is that there s indeed a unit or more of pueri,nthat they are probably in the second line, are discouraged by the retreat of the frst line and that Odo goes over and steadies them, to hold them in place. Of course Pueri and the similar Iucenes can also be used as a description of a leaders group of lads . These are young men who live at tge court of a noble and follow a milutary career, giving him a permanent force of young warriors ready for action well before his tenants and their retainers culd arrive. However, n the case of the Pueri or iuvenes on the tapestry there would be lots of them, but attached to each lord that was present.nMaybe the Pueri/ Iuvenes on the Tapestry are a group of youths attached to the forces of Duke William hinself. |
Druzhina | 31 Jan 2016 8:59 p.m. PST |
Scene 54 on the Bayeux_Tapestry has HIC ODO EPISCOPVS BACVLVM TENENS CONFORTAT PVEROS ('Here Bishop Odo, holding a club, gives strength to the boys' or 'Here Bishop Odo with a staff in his hand encourages his squires') The bishop seems to be encouraging the soldiers (as opposed to the leaders). Compare that "infantry" is from a word meaning children. I don't think the Bayeux Tapestry is enough evidence to add to a theory that Pueri is any special type of troop (there are no unarmoured Normans in this scene), it would have to be from other sources. Is there a source to support the small round shields on the Gripping Beast figures? Druzhina Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers |
Lewisgunner | 01 Feb 2016 8:28 a.m. PST |
Well the tapestry's representation of troop types is hardly systematic, Where for instance, are the infantry spearmen mentioned in the sources? So I would not expect pueri to be represented in exact costume and kit, even if they wore something dstinctive, though I doubt that they did. What I do find plausible is that the pueri represent a separate body . William must have some substructure to his army. His main subdivisions will have been centre and two wings, with their appropriate leaders, within that there will have been nobles and captains leading their contingents. However, William himself will have had enough men in his personal following to have several units, one or more of which could indeed be the Pueri. Whether you choose to represent them as Nirman Milutes or in some lesser gegree of kit is an artistic choice. |
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