"US Airborne recce/recon units Market garden?" Topic

Any thoughts on US Airborne recce/recon practice? Did US Airborne Divisions have dedicated recce units along the lines of the British recce squadron?

Yes they had (MG armed) jeep mounted recce units.Same as the Army equivalents in organisation.

Any idea where I could find more info? TO&E?

the 82nd had armoured jeeps with .50 hmg

IIRC, there was only a small divisional recce platoon deployed by air. The rest came by land with the 'sea-tail'.

That seems very possible Jemima..if anyone knows different….

Do not listen to British rules writers, US units never recceed in WW2, we do recon!

Recce platoon – no idea how equipped added as div asset to 17th AD in March 1945…….

Just had a quick look through the ref books but can find no other mention…..

Were the jeeps something that was used in the bulge?
Or as Jemima says elements that joined from the tail?

The armour plated ones I have seen would have pushed the delivery cape ability of a Waco glider

Interesting question OP

Chris

there are pics of the same jeeps in the bulge and I think they might have been flown into market garden in a horsa.

As Shaun says, the US Airborne did use Horsas for heavy loads. However, they didn't add a massive amount of armour to the Jeeps and they probably didn't weight any more than the 'special' SAS Jeeps (which were carried by CG-4 on occasion), so the CG-4 could probably cope with the added weight.

The other option would be to drop part of the Jeep crew to save weight. The CG-4 was rated to fly with 1x Jeep, 2x aircrew and 4x Jeep crew, plus personal equipment, so you could probably save enough weight by removing one man and his kit from the load.

"here are pics of the same jeeps in the bulge and I think they might have been flown into market garden in a horsa".

Armoured jeeps were not involved in airborne operations, they were ad hoc modifications made to jeeps when the airborne were fighting as infantry in the Ardennes, you would have needed a Hamilcar to transport them.

Mimimo – that's what I thought, hence the wording of the original post
Wargamer6 – that was the conclusion I had come too as well.

Zaloga mentions that the 82nd Airborne Division developed standard armour kits for its recce Jeeps. The photos do bear that out, as the 82nd Airborne armoured Jeeps are all identically modified with what appears to be well-engineered panels rather than ad hoc modifications. He doesn't say when they were developed, however. There are photos of these kits being used in the Ardennes and there is a well-known photo showing one in 'Summer' conditions, among leafy trees, suggesting their use some time before their Ardennes (or possibly Post-War).

If you wanted to fly them into action (I've no idea if they did or not), a Horsa could cope with such things very easily indeed. A Horsa could cope with a Jeep, plus 6pdr or 75mm gun, ammo, crew and personal kit. It wouldn't take a Hamilcar.

To the best of my knowledge any reconnaissance units in 1944 US Airborne Divs would be 'in house' affairs, formed from overhead of personnel, so no standardised T/O for them. The only official T/O I know of is for the Reconnaissance Platoon, Airborne Division, T/O/E 2-77T of 16th December 1944.

Pl HQ;

1st Lt, Pl Sgt (SSgt), Motor Sgt, Radio Sgt, driver, mechanic, 4 radio operators, 3 scouts, 3 basics (16 all ranks); 3 Jeeps with trailers, 1x 0.50-cal, 1 bazooka

2 Section HQs, each;

2nd Lt, Sgt, driver, 3 scouts (6 all ranks); 1 Jeep and 2 solo motorcycles

2 Squads per Section, each;

Cpl, 2 drivers, 6 scouts (9 all ranks); 3 Jeeps, 2 solo motorcycles, 2x 0.50-cal, 1 bazooka.

Total 64 all ranks, with 17 Jeeps 12 motorcycles.

I imagine that unit might be indicative of whatever provisional organisations were used in the field.

Gary

The 6700lb Payload of a Horsa could probably carry a Jeep and some armour plus a 50 cal but the US army only had a relatively small number of Horsa's available to them so I suspect that these were used for the airborne's artillery assets rather than armoured jeeps. I know that a Horsa could carry a jeep, trailer and 75mm gun but I think that a jeep plus a 6lb and crew would take the payload dangerously close to its limit to make carrying both loads a bit hazardous.
Until I get evidence that these were carried on gliders I will remain highly skeptical just like I was when Bolt action brought out French infantry armed with Boys anti tank rifles.

miniMo is indeed correct, no recce in the US Army just as we had no "paras". However all US Infantry Regiments, including Airborne had, attached to their Headquarters Company, an I&R Platoon. You can read more about them here, including a TO&E.

link

This site also has the tale of an I&R Platoon in the 101st AB.

link

They were formal units within the Regiments, not ad hoc units made up of spare men. In fact the men were often carefully chosen for their intelligence and initiative.

armoured jeeps, all the same and not add hoc mods were used by us airborne in market garden.
seen plenty of pics to back that up.
link
link
looks like landed in Waco's as well.
worth a read, imho

The Parachute Infantry Regiment T/Os for Feb42, Aug44 and Dec44 don't show an I & R Platoon, but do have an Intel Sec of 12 men, with no transport noted, in Regimental HQ Company.

The Glider Infantry Regiment T/O for Sep42 does show a Reconnaissance Group (Lt, Sgt, three Squads each Cpl and 8 men, each with a bicycle), which is then deleted from the Aug44 edition. The Dec44 T/Os were only slightly different from the normal Infantry Regiment, with an I & R Pl of 24 all ranks with 7 Jeeps.

Gary

That's great Shaun thanks for the link , don't you just love TMP.

Wargamer6,

I appreciate your healthy scepticism, but the Jeep + 6pdr + crew was a standard load for the Horsa. A British 6pdr would be allocated two Horsas, because the full gun detachment consisted of two Jeeps, the gun itself and an ammunition trailer. One of the reasons Horsas were allocated to US units was so that their field artillery and anti-tank detachments could land united – tractor and gun together in the same aircraft.

If you want scary, the Hamilcar could carry a 17pdr and its tractor… Or TWO Universal Carriers! :)

wargamer6
happy to help
some of us do know more than we think

Examples of Horsa loading for British 6-pr gun and 75-mm howitzer dets (from contemporary loading tables from the Airborne Forces Museum) -

2 Glider pilots + 3 crewmen (1050 lbs)
1 gun, 6-pr (2460 lbs)
1 Jeep, loaded (2549 lbs)
Misc items (826 lbs)

Total, Horsa with 6-pr gun and Jeep = 6885 lbs

2 Glider pilots + 3 crewmen (1050 lbs)
1 75-mm pack how (1344 lbs)
1 Jeep, loaded (2260 lbs)
1 Trailer (1379 lbs)
Misc items (833 lbs)

Total, Horsa with 75-mm pack how, Jeep and trailer = 6866 lbs

Balance of crews for arty units would be brought in on other gliders, with effectively only commander, gunner and loader accompanying the piece, this being the minimum required to operate it in the event of a disrupted landing.

Gary

They got the ammo trailer in with the 75mm howizter, eh? That's interesting. Thanks.

Shaun – I've seen the 'jeep in the woods' photo labelled as being in the Ardennes; any thoughts?

well there is no snow around?

A good point! I think I'm going to go with armoured Jeeps being part of he seaborne tail; I have n't come across any reference to them being used in the Market Garden fighting, but if somebody he knows different…..

Well that's them being loaded up for Market Garden… It seems they refitted with armoured jeeps after Normandy when back in the UK.

The pic of them in the woods is certainly Market-Garden, the original has a notation on the back that lists the guys in the jeep and its location.

The leaves on the (deciduous) trees pretty much rule out the Ardennes as well, as mentioned above. I've also seen the photo captioned 'Normandy', though I don't think that's correct either.

Its not Normandy, 82nd Reconnaissance Platoon didn't have armoured jeeps there. The platoon seems to have been quite large, with men added to it from the divisional artillery assets.

This is the note on the back of the photo;

Armour would make it too high to fit under the spar inside a Horsa when loading hence all British vehicles had extraneous bits cut off.

I,ll check loading lists for units and verify..

Good point about height. I suppose they'd fit into hamilcars easily enough.

I've spent a little while searching for any references to Airborne Div Recn Pls, and found a few comments via things like Google and Amazon books previews on them, but nothing detailed. There are a couple of threads on the forum on the 101st run by Mark Bando, but even they are slender;

101airborneww2.com

This is perhaps the better of the threads on there;

link

I'm really surprised at how reticent the internet is on this type of unit, normally all things airborne are well covered, but not this one. Be interesting to see if anyone else can turn something up on them.

I don't suppose we can work out how heavy an 'ironside' Jeep was to figure if it could definitely fit into a Waco, as the above picture indicates was the case?

Gary

a Waco was designed to take a jeep with the tilt up so size wise it seems ok.

After a visit to an online steel stockist and assuming the Jeep was fitted with 10mm armoured plate , I calculate that Jeep plus the armour and a 50 caliber MG would come to about 3000lb which is well within the payload of a Waco glider.