"HMS St. Lawrence – The Mightiest Ship To Never Sail the Seas" Topic

"THE COLOSSAL St. Lawrence was one of the largest fighting vessels of the Napoleonic era.

Laid down in April of 1814, this Royal Navy first-rate, ship-of-the-line was five feet longer than HMS Victory and two feet wider in the beam. It also packed 112 cannons – eight more than Horatio Nelson's legendary flagship.

Even more remarkable than HMS St. Lawrence's considerable size is the fact that the massive ship was completely landlocked. She was built, launched and served her surprisingly brief career on a fresh water lake nearly a thousand kilometres from the nearest major sea port – the proverbial big fish in a small pond…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Imagine the cost were we not good allies with Canada today

I still want War Artisan to do this model in 1:300 scale for his "Great Lakes" range and rules.

I support you my dear cousin! (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

It's a great and often-overlooked story from the age of fighting sail.
The St. L. could be fun to wargame with, in a sandbox type situation.
But the problem from my standpoint is that by this point in the lakes war, whichever side launched the latest and greatest ship scared the other side off that lake and into port …until they could launch something bigger.
So, what American commander in his right mind would engage the St. L under any conceivable scenario?
The really interesting period on the lakes, to me, was the summer of 1813. Rough parity between the rival Ontario squadrons, and both sides seeking a decisive battle at various times -- although that battle never actually happened. This is what makes it a great miniatures or board game topic. It's a battle that could easily have happened, and you can see how it might have turned out. Plus, you've got a manageable number of ships per side so you don't have to invest in Trafalgar-sized fleets.

Quite interesting my friend.

Amicalement
Armand

what American commander in his right mind would engage the St. L under any conceivable scenario?

Well, considering the US was close to launching their own 100+ gun ship at the time of the war's end (with another in the works), I'd say the US commander would be pretty confident. The USS New Orleans was under construction at Sacketts harbor and would have been more than an answer to HMS St. Lawrence. Building ships of this size was a brutal stretch to both sides logistics and manning them would have been near impossible. And given their limited utility, would have been massive white elephants.

Those 112 cannons would have been better used in the Plattsburg invasion force….

Still an interesting what if. Also what happens when a commander on the frontier gets to build whatever he wants….

You would think that the British Governor would be like "Hey you sure are putting in a lot of resources on one big lake ship…"

I suppose once the first super-ship went on the stocks, the other side would have little choice but to match it or concede lake control to the enemy. Arms races are insane from one perspective, but acquire a bizarre logic of their own.

I'm in the middle of reading Theodore Roosevelt's history of the Naval War of 1812. The chapters on the Lake campaigns are fascinating! The thing that gets me about the struggle on Lake Ontario is that the respective bases for the opposing fleets, Kingston and Sackett's Harbor are only about 25 miles apart!

Wellington believed that to win the war, control of the Lakes was essential.

And it should be noted that the warships on both sides were built to sail and fight on the Lakes, and not on the ocean. There was a difference in the construction of the warships to fight on the Lakes. And they could carry more guns that ocean-going and -designed ships as they did not have to carry fresh water or large supplies such as food and other provisions.

They, both sides, were also built of green timber and were hastily constructed. And Lake Ontario was only navigable for about half the year because of ice and other weather conditions.

And the ships were built at the end of long supply lines over which it was difficult to bring the necessary materials and weapons. Ontario is also a deep-water lake, while Erie is not.

It was a naval war, but one quite different than being at sea.

An outstanding book about the naval war on Lake Ontario is Robert Malcolmson's "Lords of the Lake." It's not only a great read, but in the appendices it also has the best and most accurate orders of battle of any work on the topic. He even has several over time, so you see how the rival squadrons evolved and changed their armaments.

I used it as my primary reference for my board game design, "A Glorious Chance: The Naval Struggle for Lake Ontario, 1813."
Legion Wargames is the publisher, and it's expected to open for preorders later in March. It's an operational solitaire game, so you can use it as a scenario-generator for your naval minis.

More info:
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My in-laws live on the hill about a 2-3 miles southwest of Sackett's. I try and walk the battlefield at least once a year. On a clear day you can easily see to the Kingston area. Always wondered why no outlook post was placed on this hill. Clear view of the whole area and you can see freighters leaving from behind Wolfe, Simcoe and Amherst islands with the naked eye. I'm sure smaller sailing ships would have been visible with a scope.