"Wall guns in AWI?" Topic

While I know that Jaegers used amusettes, I was wondering if there are any other recorded instances of Crown forces using such big guns? When and where? Who operated them, infantry or RA?

Any help appreciated. :-)

the formal Spanish siege of Pensacola used big guns as did the french and Spanish against Gibraltar.

Were there any in the forts near Philadelphia? Good question which I don't have a good answer for.

They were in the RA armament along with the wooden mantlet on wheels.

I am looking into this subject at the moment. Was this equipment recorded in drawings or actually in the field?

Edit PS other than in the Queen's Legion and with the Germans

Fritz:

I'm asking cause none of my reference books say who used them, but how do you know they were RA?

There was an RA NCO attached to the Queen's Rangers in order to give their artillery section instructions on the use of their two guns – a 3-pdr and an Amusette. In the same way, NCOs of the two Light Dragoon regiments did the same for their mounted counterparts.

I would have thought that the H-C jaeger would have used their own artillery companies to do this.

SM:

Other than Jaegers and QR, are you aware of anyone else using a wall gun? All my weapons references say they were used on board ships and in fortifications (sometimes temporary works). I was not sure, when on land, if they would be handled by infantry or RA, or if even used at all?

Having handled a period wall piece (later than AWI, though), I don't see them ever being used in the field – they are way too heavy and cumbersome. I was assuming your original question related to use within works. They are very much a two man weapon.

Check out Adrian Caruana's book, "Grasshoppers and Butterflies: the Light 3-pounders of Pattison and Townsend." You will see drawings of the wall gun and the mantle therein.

From Fife & Drum Miniatures:

The Amusette is basically a 1-pound "wall gun" that could probably knock an elephant down. The wood mantle on wheels was often deployed, in theory, on either side of a 3-pound artillery piece as a form of protection for the artillery crew. Hessian jagers also used the wall gun, but since it was part of the Royal Artillery ordinance, I decided to crew the set with British artillerymen instead of jagers.

SM- do we have specific contemproary references to the guns attached to the Light Dragoon; that is describing the calibre or carriage?

Sorry, 42F, crossed wires (my fault) – the reference to the cavalry was just that, as cavalry. I meant that the RA taught the putative gunners in the same way that NCOs from the Regular cavalry instructed the mounted troops of the QR and BL contingents.

Got it, SM. Thanks. I thougt that might be it. It's bloody minefield out there, isn't it?

I have both the Fife and Drum with RA gunners and the Perry set with jaeger crew.
Like both, and am trying to fit them into Flames of Liberty.

Soooo, back to my original question: Does anyone have any references to these being used, other than by Jaegers?

I have been directed to a brief account of the action at Cooch's Bridge on 3 September which includes a reference,I think by Major John André (it might be Captain Munchausen), to Hessian grenadiers who succeeded in gaining the American flank and "cannonaded [them] with some amusettes and charged with bayonets," and drove the Americans back in disorder.

wtj.com/articles/brandywine

Now, the word 'cannonade' suggests to me a light gun amusette rather than a wall gun amusette but that could be mistaken. It is worth noting the troops involved were grenadiers rather than jager.

A fairly thorough discussion of the conundrum here, albeit in German, and extending into the period of the French wars. Lots of good images in one place and links to various sites.

link

One possible problem is that platoons of grenadiers were used to support the jaeger in the Hesse Cassel service. This means that "amusette" could either be the type we are talking about, or it could mean smaller cannon as each grenadier battalion had a pair of Swedish-style 3- or 4-pdr battalion guns.

That's an interesting point. I'm still looking into this, but I get the impression that,in the Hessian context, 'amusette' referred to small calibre field pieces, 1 or 2 pdrs- when not referring to the heavy calibre musket. The 'amusette' tag does derive from De Saxe's wry suggestion that these were weapons so light as to be hardly worth the bother. Might that extend in this case to grenadier battalion guns?

It is true that the Danes and Norwegians, having adopted light 1-pdr guns on 'galloper' carriages designed by the Hessian general Huth, came to use the term amusette to refer to any gun with a double shaft trail, which may have included the odd 3-pdr (TBC). I don't know what that tells us in this particular case.

Well so far it tells me that no one has anything solid about the British army or RA using them in combat during the AWI.

Quite possibly not!

If they'd had them they would have used them?

Ducking…

I thought I would bump this thread, having had resaon to look into the subject further.

It is intriguing and frustrating, how ambiguous the sources seem to be. I was surprised nonetheless how many of them might reasonably be interpreted as referring to field pieces rather than 'wall guns'. Questions of translation and period assumptions or omissions, render the matter inconclusive but see what others of you think. It would be interesting to know if references that I have missed redress the balance.

If we start with the Congreve drawings deposited at Woolwich in 1783, there we find the one reference to the large calibre, version of a flintlock musket/?rifle, in the drawings that demonstrate a system of mantlets to be attached to gun limbers and used to cover light guns in advanced posts. So far so good. I have yet to learn to what extent, if at all, that set-up was ever used in the field; also whether such weapons were regarded as the preserve of the artillery because of their size or were merely an established weapon being adapted by designers at the Royal Artillery.

As far as the German jager detachements in America are concerned, we are told that in August 1776 two light jaeger amusetten were supplied to them by the British and they drilled with them before Sir William Howe on Staten Island.

In the well-known incident of the Americsn sharp shooters in a barn on the Raritan in April 1777, Captain Ewald of the jagers decribes the fire from his concealed amusette as a 'cannon shot.'

In Ewald's sketch map of the area, symbols for the two amusettes with his unit are depicted fairly obviously as wheeled field pieces.
link

In an account of the action at Short Hills in June 1777, Atwood in 'The Hessians'(2002) describes the enemy "withdrawing before the fire of the amusettes"- He doesn't give a source.

In the skirmish at Cooch's bridge in September 1777, Baurmeister records that von Wrenden's jagers "cannonaded their front with amusettes," which sounds like a description of field pieces, although his account of jagers at White Hills a week later "dodging behind the fences around the fields and woods" demonstating " their superior marksmanship and skill with amusettes" suggests something more precise- and portable.

In his journal Johann von Krafft, a 'chasseur' operating in support of the jagers, is specific: "Our corps consisted of 5 foot and 1 mounted Yager and our Chasseur company, and 2 3-lb Amazetten [sic] which had been given to the Corps by the English. Around these several Yagers constantly remained with muskets and bayonets" (1st August 1778).

A little confusingly, the two amazetten that they take out six weeks later are described as "throwing one pound iron bolt" – (a literal translation by the author[schlag?]). These amusettes were usually accompanied by a powder wagon but could travel with 30 rounds for ready use. Klafft clearly felt more comfortable when they had these support weapons with them. He commented when he has to go out into debatable lands without an amusette or 'cannon.'

Meanwhile, in July 1778 Simcoe described the 3-pdr with his ranger corps being supplemented with an amusette accompanied by three artillery men. Later he asked for a full complement of trained artillerymen to man "his cannon" in order to leave his rangers free to operate as infantry. When this request was not granted, he returned both 3-pdr and amusette to the artillery park. Does that sound like a situation involving wall-guns?

Later on, during the final campaign at Williamsburg VA in June 1781, with an amusette on the strength once more, it was described as "having broken down." That sounds like a gun carriage- whether for a field piece or the sort of barrow envisaged by de Saxe, is a matter for debate.

Meanwhile, a year previously, Clinton's vanguard were preparing to to invest Charleston. "At daybreak all the troops disembarked without the guns (except the four amusettes of the light infantry, which the men themselves had to remove)." (Ewald). Would men be described as having to disembark guns that were man-portable, albeit heavy b@stards?

I had no brief for either conclusion although when I started digging I expected to find more concrete references to the 'wall gun' amusette. It will be obvious from my comments that now I would be inclined to lean more towards light field pieces. I admit I am surprised

What do others think? It may be worth noting, there are no references to horse draft being involved but I suppose that might be assumed in some instances.

"At daybreak all the troops disembarked without the guns (except the four amusettes of the light infantry, which the men themselves had to remove)."

FWIW, I'm pretty sure these were 3-pdrs – certainly not come across any references to the Light Infantry battalions having anything smaller.

Well, indeed, although Patrick O' Kelley, for instance- deceived, I suspect, by the term 'amusette'- concluded otherwise: "At dawn on March 12th Colonel Abercromby and the Light Infantry marched to Hammond's Plantation. The lights carried two huge wall guns known as an amusette. These wall guns were giant muskets and were more like a cannon. They fired a 1-inch ball that Charles Lee wrote, was able to hit a piece of paper at 800 yards."
("Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in the Carolinas, quoted on RevList, Mar 11, 2005)

Perhaps, before furthering this discussion, the OP – and others – might promulgate a careful definition of what constitutes a "wall gun". To my mind, it is a gun that might be used by two people but could be used by one if rested on a wall – thus the 'wall' in the name. Also, it might be used in a 'swivel' either on said wall or standing on its own (on a rest of course). The one I handled easily weighed in at around twenty pounds.

Many of the other items discussed above seem to be referring to very light artillery pieces which, by my understanding, are not wall guns. Of course, my understanding is open to expansion.

For historygamer – no, I can't recollect any accounts of their use outside of any fortifications though I think – maybe Ninety_Six – I might have read of swivel guns in use but, again, in a fort, not in the field.

EMW< I think the concept, in principle, of a large calibre musket/ rifle weapon, be it fired from a wall or rampart, or operated by a team in the field using some form of portable rest, is reasonably well established.

A correlation between this form of weapon and the term 'amusette' seems now to be a 'given' in relation to the AWI- as the OP's question indicates. To what degree this association stems from de Saxe's 1730s description of a large calibre, breech-loading musket, or whether it derives from clear evidence of such a weapon being deployed by British force, and that nickname being applied, I am less clear.

To that end it seemed useful to examine references to 'amusettes' found in AWI primary sources in order to determine, if possible, whether the weapon being described in each case is a 'wall gun' or a field piece.'

As you rightly point out,EMW, the sources quoted so far do seem, in the main, to be referring to light field pieces, rather than heavy duty muskets although there is a degree of ambiguity in several cases.

To muddy the waters, further to the unsourced reference to amusettes n Atwoods's 'The Hessians' (2002), in accounts of the Short Hills fighting in June 1777, one German source describes the advance guard of Cornwallis' column driving off an enemy force of 200 – "repulsed by means of a short skirmish and the sound of the amusettes" (Short Description of the Journey of the Honourable Hessian troops from Brewerlehe to
America).

However, in a similar account this is rendered as "a short skirmish and the roaring voices of the grasshopper guns" (Journal of the Grenadier Battalion Minnegerode 1776-1784) and in a third is dismissed as "a few shots sent at them from the "Grasshoppers" (Journal of the Hessian troops in America under the command of General von Heister)

Simiarly, in German accounts of the 'Battle of the Clouds' on 16.9.1777, we find references to von Wurmb having "two amusettes brought up" to support the jagers (The Journal of Ensign/Lt. Wilhelm Johann Ernst Freyenhagen) while Knyphausen writing home to Landgraf Friedrich apparently referred to an American prisoner "severely wounded by the 'Grasshopper gun' left on the field after the jager have "scattered the enemy."

Without seeing the German text, we don't know what liberties may have been taken by certain translators who perhaps decided to translate amusette as 'grasshopper'- which surely wasn't the term used in the original.

Nonetheless, on the face of it, it seems clear that the amusettes referred to in these instances are taken to be field pieces rather than heavy muskets.