"Why Austrians?" Topic

I've been doing some browsing here over the last couple weeks, and couldn't quite hit on the answer. The question, of course, is: Why the Austrians? They don't seem to have the glitz, glamor, and exoticism of various other nationalities in the 18th and 19th century. They don't have bad armies by any means, but always seem to struggle.

I, for one, have always loved the Austrians. They seem so noble and, with the exception of the Polish partitions, one of the more consistently noble European powers. But I welcome your thoughts.

By the way, I view this as a 1700-1918 topic.

Because I love a challenge. Anyone can win with the French – winning with the Austrians says something.

Usually something like "I was very lucky."

I find their resilience appealing. They just kept coming back for more. Maria Theresa was also a lot more appealing personality than Frederick.

Plus, their infantry are really easy to paint (at least in the periods that I do).

An army for the discerning masochist.

Exactly. They are solid reliable and workmanlike.under Maria Theresa they are probably the most humane army in Europe.
The Napoleonic French are way too flashy with their superfluity of elite troops.
Plus hussars and grenzers give you a splash of colour
I like the Austrians all the way through.

I agree with Mserafin.
If you win with the Austrians it's a real win.
If you win with the French, well that's a normal situation.

Austrians allways good as an opponent to the French in the whole French Revolutionary wars up to 1800, then against Napoleon in 1805 / 1809 / 1813 – 1815

A lot of different units, Line, Grenadiers, Jäger, Grenzer, Landwehr, volunteer units, Tyrolean insurgents, Hungarian insurgents, very colourfull cavalry – interesting artillery.

I completly disagree that they don't have the glitz and glamour – this they lack only in English language sources, Dave Hollins tried to rectify this.

The most stubborn opponants of France in the French Revolution/napoleonic period. Not a bad army at all (except maybe in 1805) Napoleon himself aknowledged this after the 1809 campaign. They were involved in the major victories of the allies in the later campaigns (Leipzig etc), and as van W. points out it is a very colourfull army. By the way "winning with the French is normal"? In the later campaign they had to swallow some serious defeats and their army surely was not superstrong. Winning with Napoleon now that was (untill 1813 with one or to exceptions -Aspern Essling-) the norm. In conclusion no "serious" wargamer of the Nap. period should go without an Austrian army. (But that could be said about most armies of the period)

Kind of hard to do Napoleonics without them. You have to have them. Too many battles, too many campaigns.

The most regular and stolid opponent of the French throughout the Napoleonic wars. I also think the white uniform looks great, as do the yellow ochre artillery, and colour added with all the different facings, Grenzers, Hungarians, and cavalry including brilliantly colourful Hussars. I actually think they are one of the best looking Napoleonic armies on table.

I love my Austrians, and plenty more colourful troops still to add!
link

I agree with Markconz, and I am also in awe of his beautiful Austrian army.

I like them also because as I live in the Czech Republic they are kind of like the home team. The Bohemians and Moravians are prominent in my army, but winning with them is a different story.

I like the topic. Also because my wife is direct descendent (from female branch) from the Emperor Francis II, the strongest opponent of Napoleon. So with the time I switched my sympathies from the French to the Austrian (for obvious "familiar" reasons) and I can actually confirm still now the nobility of the Austrians as a general matter.
The Austrian mentality, with it severe discipline (still existing at home!) was something so distant from the ideas of the revolutionary France, that – let's do not forget – committed crimes, like killing nobles by throwing them in the rivers with stones at the neck, raping nouns, till the killing of the Duke d'Enghien, something that nowadays would put France on the black list.
So the Austian Army represented also the unique successful try of putting together different people of different nations: Austrian, Tyrolean, Italian, Hungarian, Polish, Moravian, Bohemian, Slovak, Ucrainian, Rumenian, Slovenian, Croat…. all fighting not for a nation but for a family and an ideal of order and armony. So… Es lebe Kaiser Franz!"

The Austrian army was the most elegant army in Europe beween 1700 and 1914. Thereafter its elegance disappeared in the mud.

The development (and simplification)of their uniforms was a straight line in predictibility between these dates and the apogee of elegance was reached before the Great War. Consider the simple uniform of Franz Joseph compared to the gilded peacock-rulers of other states

In the Napoleonic era I like them because I think they look great. You get all the different facing colours against white uniforms; Hungarians in blue trousers; grenadiers in bearskin caps; great hussar and lancer uniforms; grenz infantry. The only thing that lets them down is their flags, which basically come in two types: white and yellow.

I have always liked the Austrians since Bruce Quarrie rubbished them in one of the first wargaming books I bought (the Airfix Magazine Guide – which I still found inspiring). That inspired my underdog sympathies. Those opinions of Quarries represent the conventional wisdom of the time, handed down uncritically from the mid-19th Century. Since then I have found that the Austrian army was in fact quite modern, unlike the caricature – but reflected different political priorities.

One of the more admirable features of the Austrian Empire of the time was to try and keep the military in its place, as a servant of the state rather than, happened in Prussia and Napoleonic France, the other way round. Visually that meant countering the peacock tendency in uniforms – substituting a smart uniformity that we now see as good taste.

The downside to this that undoubtedly Austrian military command was less efficient than the French – though not necessarily other major nations. If you reflect that fairly on the game table, then that will lead to a bit of frustration. It is very interesting from a historical point of view to analyses Austrian strengths and weaknesses though.

I disagree with Markonz and TJ, I think white is a rather boring colour.

However, I think the main reason is, with the exception of Prinz Eugen, they never have a Great Captain leading their armies.

It is the same reason that most people with WWII armies seem to have the Germans, they all want the 'All Conquering Army' with that +2 leader.

We spend a lot of time and effort on our little men, so we need a 'hook', that might be the appeal of Alte Fritz, or the Duke of Marlborough. The Austrians just don't have that…

Although, their one appeal is, for the C18, they can fight the Turks in the East and the French or Prussians in the West. Two completely different opponents for the one army…

I like the Austrians for SYW, don't like them for Napoleonics

1. More color on them during SYW
2. Austrians seem very dated during the napoleonic wars.

While prussia did a complete make over after 1806, Austria only did a 30-50% make over, still slow and outdated even in 1813.

I love painting up the French armies and their allies because of the variety, but I can't understand those who put down the Austrians or their uniforms. They make up an interesting aspect of the whole Revolutionary and Napoleonic period.

And their uniforms were not just white. They have a variety, just as other armies do. And they also had some decent commanders, Archduke Charles to name but one.

Anyway, I certainly enjoy painting them up and wargaming with them. And if people look hard enough I am sure they will find some interesting looking units.

In terms of opponents for the Austrians, you can, of course, have them fighting the French, but you can also have them fighting Napoleon's allied armies such as the Bavarians or the Russians as they did in 1812.

Politics partly. I like the practical conservatism expressed by politicians like Prince Metternich or Prince Swannzenberg (the 1850s guy). Very different from the more ideological conservatism of Prussia, the UK, France, Russia, or the UK.

I also dislike the idea of unitary nation states. Austria struggled with making a practical federalism, at times failing miserably (the 1848-1867 period), but the basis for it existed in ideology and willingness (compare to most of the other states of Europe forcing people in the mince meat machine of unitary nationalism). If WW1 had not happened, or in 1866 Prussia had been defeated, who knows how history would had advanced, especially in the very brutalized central Europe.Its not that the austrians did not fall for the sirens of chauvinistic nationalism (especially towards the Czechs and Hungarians, though the Hungarians themselves were champions in this as we saw post-1867). But they resisted the most of all. I applaud and honor that sentiment.

So I guess lots of Lost Cause thinking on my part, much naive, some less so (waiting like crazy for this book link

Uniforms: I absolutely love the 1864-1866 Austrian Uniform. I find it the best mix of practicality and pomp in Europe.

Franz Ferdinand,Swantzenberg, Colonel Redl, Tettenghof, Benedek, Gulay: The Austrians never had a great captain but god do they have some interesting personalities. Even the people I hate (Conrand von Hotzendorf, a war criminal if there ever was one) were interesting.

I'm a very casual Napoleonic gamer. I went 10mm. Since I'm the guy who buys everything, I bought Austrians and Russians. I didn't want to do French and British, everybody does French and British.

So why Austrians?….white uniforms, helmets, colored cuffs….very kewl looking on the table!

I cannot say that the Austrians look at all dated in the Napoleonic war, when one army looked dated it was the French who were were conservative – clinging to lapels till to the end of the Napoleonic wars.
With the regulation od 1767 the Austrian infantry ahd already a modern coat cut without any lapels and just one row of buttons, add to that the Kasket – a replacment of the hat, quite modern looking infantry.

After painting a few Austrians I find the contrast of the white uniform with a lot of different facing colours very striking.

The Austrians because they are not only such as the Prussians, the Russians, the French, the British, but they are the Holy Roman Empire. A political organization that is reminiscent of the grand Classicism not only in name and multi-ethnicity, but that is also idea of ​​continuity, of tradition, of solidity, measuring, good governance, (not always though, but overall), a star Polar reference to the other protagonists of storia.Gli Austrians, because they have nice uniforms, because it is harder win the game wargame. I realized Austrian armies in all ages and in different scales, 4 only Napoleon, and I remains always very satisfied. Unfortunately, I noticed that the Austrians collect little luck among the sculptors and their ranges are always less rich.

Also, their flagstaffs look like barbers' poles, which is very cool.

While my French (Napoleonic) are my favorite, my Austrians are a close second. As for those who would disparage Austrian martial qualities (aside from some of the generals), after 1809, Napoleon himself responded to such with "It is evident that you were not at Wagram!"

Strongly motivated, poorly led at higher level with rare exceptions, brave, and constant in opposition to Napoleon/French Reublican goals. They may have been on the wrong side of history in the long run but all nations eventually are – even Britain in the mid-twentieth century and eventually/possibly now America.

White is a difficult color to paint miniatures with for many and in the larger sized figures that may be a factor in their "lack of love/color" in many minds.

I like them and if I did SYW, Napoleonic wars, or WW1 then I would do them. Closest Austrian forces for me would be opposing my Spanish VSF (and Tarzan) units in 25mm or 15mm on Venus – yes, I said Tarzan on Venus, where else would he go to get away from civilization's woes.

I collect Austrians for late Revolutionary to early Napoleonic, 1798-1800, which lets you use the earlier uniforms mixed with the helmet. This allows a really varied army, with lots of colour. I also added some of Austria's Italian allies to the collection, giving a much more colourful army that the French of the time.

Good guys always wear white.

I think it would be wrong to characterise the Austrians as any more antiquated than anybody else in this era. There was deep strand of conservatism running through all armies, as well as a constant desire by reformers to improve performance.

Many of the Prussian reforms of the 1812 manual were based on Austrian models, not French ones. The use third rank and the battalion mass in particular. The Austrian division mass formation was way ahead of its time. I would certainly hesitate to suggest that the Austrians were less effective than their allies in 1813. And in 1812 in Russia you certainly wouldn't suggest either that the Austrians fought less effectively than their French doctrine allies, the Saxons, or, indeed their Russian opponents.

I think to many British authors have based their views on biased French accounts.

Here is my take on this during the Napoleonic wars…they are the "odd" ones among the major five powers. Below is a short list of the differences:

1) The English speak English, the Russian speak Russian, etc. Austrians do not speak Austrian (whatever that is) but German.

2) It is not just Austria, but Austria-Hungarian

3) Infantry wear helmets. Ahead of their time, or behind?

4) Large battalions/brigades

5) They changed sides during the war

6) AKA, The Holy Roman Empire (There is significance there, but I am not sure what it is.)

7) And yes, white uniforms are still odd to me. I imagine they became grey after each battle.

Again, the short answer, they are the "odd" ones.

Also, either a very easy army to paint in 3mm, or very difficult, if you are worried about belts. (This makes me rethink Austrians in 3mm…hmmm.)

William

The Austrians where the slowest marchers i Europe, their command and control seems badly done and old.

But this thread has convinced me to try and paint a victrix batalion of Austrians.

"7) And yes, white uniforms are still odd to me. I imagine they became grey after each battle."

All uniforms faded, but white ones can be brought back to white by rubbing them with chalk, unlike other uniforms. Once a coloured uniform fades, that's it.

I have big Austrian armies for both SYW and Napoleonics – while the hordes of white-jacketed infantry seem a bit boring, there are the grenzers (who in SYW had a crazy range of uniforms) and the cavalry – with even a decent general in the SYW they have a reasonably good chance of beating those Prussian dunger, and in the Napoleonic Wars they have steady infantry, good artillery, decent cavalry – and they can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'

KTravlos, the link takes me to HUP, but not a specific book. Can you please elaborate.

I think that I have read that pipe clay was also used to whiten the dirty uniforms. They weren't wearing white for aesthetic reasons, they were wearing white uniforms because white was cheap.

Yep. As Frederick said.
My Collection is exclusive 7YW. I have French, Anglo-German Allies, Austrians, and Prussians in precisely that order – numeric speaking. I love my Austrians, and really prefer them to my Prussian Army. They are stylish, in a way. Place an Austrian Army on the table top, and you love the regularity of its looks. They beat anyone if well led (played) A good Army. Only yesterday I had the honour to play Austrians in a 1809 refight of the battle of Sacile/Italian Theatre of War (Not my troops).
We beat the French by employing all of the Austrian virtues – that is patience, endurance, and determination. Step by step, we drove those French into the morasses. I loved the performance of my Grenz regiments, acting as French Légèrs in combination with our superior horse artillery. Eugene's French army of Italy was no match to us. I never saw so many Napoleonic French infantry brigades routed in a single game. What a victory. Austrians are a great army to play with for sure – and it remains the best dressed army in Europe from about 1738 on to 1914. Nothing beats their stylish turnout – the flag design could come with more variants, to my taste, but thats about all I could object – looks-wise.

Cheers,
Christian
crogges7ywarmies.blogspot.com

Because they were one of the Major players against the French/Prussians (depending on period).

Plus easy to paint. I hate painting

For me it is because they are a people out of legend.

Of course, I am one myself, my family haling from those parts, but beyond mere tribal loyalty what's not to like about a people that want to conquer the world using the two-step instead of the goose step.

While I am of Austrian descent, who cold not take pride in the achievements of the state when so many of it's generals had such typically Germanic names as Browne, Lacy, Laudon, O'Rourke, Hoyos, Kinsky, Jelalic, Serbelloni, Montecuccoli, Los Rios, Des Fours, De Ligne, Gyllendorf, Smith, and of course, Prinz Euegio di Savoia, Prinz Eugen of eternal fame. An Equal opportunity employer if there ever was one.

What is not legendary about the Austrians who stood as a rock solid bulwark against the Moslem Turks for centuries and rolled them back, crushing them, and triumphing for the sake of Europe.

It has been said of Prussia that it was an army with a state. Austria was held together singularly and amazingly by a dynasty with an army. A great European state built with virtually no sinews or resources except Loyalty to the House of Hapsburg, and who triumphs over a dozen assailants, and somehow manages to keep going.

What is not legendary about such a state, the motto of which is A.E.I.O.U which translates to "Alles Erdrecich ist Oesterreiches Untertan." (All the earth stands under Austria's domination.) and others.

It is the land of Strauss, and Mozart, Haydn, and Salieri, of Turkenkopfs (what you know as angel food cake, strudel, schnitzel, Sachertorte's and Zahne, waltzes and landlers, and the wonderful phrase "the situation is hopeless but not serious." Remember the Croissant is not French, it's those wonderful delicious butter-horns made in the shape of a crescent and commemorating the first great siege. Coffee and Coissants Mein Herr, "vuud you like zum vipped cream mit you vipped cream?

It is a country of the most fabulous cities, Vienna, Budapest, and Prague- "Schlata Praha" Golden Prague where today in these cities which weren't bombed to during the war, you can see in the miraculous treasure troves of the museums, the art, sculpture and treasures of the ages.

I recommend to any of your doubters a wonderful work on this amazing, magnificent but ramshackle Empire-- "Danubia: A personal history of Hapsburg Europe" by Simon Winder.

Oh yes, they aren't the best or most brilliant in war, but it's not for lack of trying, and somehow-- they always managed to stay around and survive. yes that A.E.I.O.U is a claim to rule the world, but they don't have the attention span for it. They always get distracted by wine, women, and song, or cleavage, chocolate, and whipped cream.

And of course at the top of it all is that epitome of the Austrian motto- Noble Austria, others conquer, you marry,- I mean Maria Theresia, who styled herself "First Domina (mother) of the state" and who took an intense and motherly interest in her subjecs. I remember doing primary research once on a different subject, properly military, but larded in with her letters where notes to this or that governor or magistrate that went something like this.

"Dear Mr.DeGreech, I write to you now about he case of one Janos Beitz, late corporal of the XXXX regiment. He once was a cobbler but through years of war in the service of our crown he is no longer able to carry on his trade and has appealed to our mercy if some place cannot be found for him where he may live out his final days in some comfort and honor.

The magistrate would write back that there was no place for the said Corporal Beitz, and they did not have the money to open a lazar or old folks home, and there was nothing they could do.

The would be followed by another nudging letter from the Queen who would say how it grieves her to think of poor Janos tossed into the street and it would seem intolerable that she should have to treat her faithful servants so, and wondered if not there were some rich merchant who could be prevailed to let him stay in some small building of his estate, or if the town fathers could not use a watchman…

and on and on and on, and eventually four or five letters later, if the magistrate knew what was good for him, some park or fountain would require a watchman that it absolutely did not need, and Corporal Beitz would get a small room at some Inn, and a few florins a month to live on, and he would parade his threadbare regimentals, reminder of a former era and tell astounding stories to the local urchins about how "Yes I met the Great Queen myself, after the battle of Kolin, where she thanked me for my service and gave me a hundred ducats for capturing four Prussian flags…."

Austrians. It would have been a much poorer and bleaker world without them.

I forgot to make a bet controversy over the value attributed to the Austrian by the wargame rules.Try playing Wagram with 30,000 men less, with about 15000/20000 landwer and giving 15000/20000 guards to the various nations opponent. Let's see who comes up to the second day of battle, between those who see upsets for at least twice the Napoleonic army, among those we see who can finish the game losing less figures and gaining more troops flags. Then let know the result to the authors of the rules.

As a 'In the Grand Manner' player, I'm a fan of the 48-man Batallions, they look great!

John

boring uniforms? I found them fantastic with the azure trousers of the Hungarian units! even better in SYW when these regiments were really colourfull

I started Austrians because they filled a gap in our club. The uniforms are not boring at all. The variety is there, just subtle.

I like the uniforms. Not boring at all. Much nicer than the Prussians and French. No lace unlike the British. White is not a difficult colour to paint at all. (That has to be yellow for me). Nice tidy army.
Uhlans. Hussars. Dragoons. Cuirassiers. Grenadiers. Line. Helmets and shakos. Facing colours. Jagers. Brown jacket artillery. Lots of variety there.

My very first army was Austian. We were playing CLS then so 60 man line bns. Very cool looking army.

Here's why I like Austrians…

Yeah.. Austrians have enough colors.. even grenadiers.

great painting Sho, your Austrians look ace.

I find white difficult to paint en masse. Dip tends to muddy everything. But one day…

Until then, all painting hints gratefully received please. For speed painting, not high quality display purposes

My go to white is.

Shade of coat d arms horse tone grey, followed by foundry Austrian white A and B, then a very close pure white i can get.

Beautiful miniatures Sho Baki. I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

Very very pale grey for tunic/trousers, off white (just a drop of yellow in mix) for crossbelts then a thin brushed coat of army painter, for 10mm it looks just fine.

As to why Austrians, well all of the above really, read 'For God and Kaiser' by Richard Bassett, says it all.
Hoch !

link

I have always liked the Austrians since Bruce Quarrie rubbished them in one of the first wargaming books I bought (the Airfix Magazine Guide – which I still found inspiring). That inspired my underdog sympathies. Those opinions of Quarries represent the conventional wisdom of the time, handed down uncritically from the mid-19th Century. Since then I have found that the Austrian army was in fact quite modern, unlike the caricature

I started out assuming Quarrie was right, then decided he must be wrong, and having read JH Gill, I am now once again persuaded he was, in fact, right all along.

If you look at how Archduke Charles' attack into Bavaria went in 1809, his troops did well to manage an advance of four to six miles a day, and the whole army stopped for a rest after just two days on the march. On the same roads and in the same weather conditions, Napoleon's armies routinely managed 18 to 20 miles a day for days on end. This rate of march was well within the Austrian army's capabilities; we know this because they matched it in retreat. So Quarrie's characterisation that the army's rapid movements were only in retreat, i.e. it was good at running away, is supported by evidence.

Similarly, the movement and manoeuvre penalties he imposes on Austrians on the table top can be minimised if each unit is assigned a clear objective and if no untoward circumstances eventuate. An Austrian unit ordered to clear a village of enemy infantry will do so without much tactical penalty. But if menaced by cavalry they will have to ponderously sort themselves into square at significant movement / time penalty.

The lesson is that under those rules, your Austrians were best used in set-piece attacks into narrowly-defined objectives with no tactical surprises expected or likely, and the wider battle pre-planned as far as possible. If the wheels came off, you were in a bad place trying to improvise with Austrians. This strikes me as a pretty good approxomation of what happened historically.

I write as an Austrian army lover who bought Airfix British because it's all there was and am only now accumulating the French and Austrian 28mm armies I always shoulda had.