"Missing Japanese ships" Topic

Having recently returned to naval wargaming after a long absence (I was tempted by the new WTJ offerings) I am trying to build a 1/2400 scale fleet suitable for gaming a hypothetical war between the U.S. and Japan in the period 1907-08.

Building a new U.S. fleet was straightforward enough with a combination of purchases from WTJ and GHQ. Most of the Japanese fleet for 1907-08 was present for the Russo-Japanese war, and so is also available through WTJ, including the captured Russian vessels the Japanese added to their own forces.

The problem is those Japanese ships that were constructed immediately after the war. I've pressed a pair of GHQ Edward VIIs into service as the battleships Kashima and Katori. My biggest concern, however, are the two Tsukuba class armored cruiser/battlecruisers. There does not seem to be a 1/2400 model of them, nor have I identified a really good stand-in. Does anyone have suggestions?

If I can make this work, a photo of a Tsukuba class ship should appear below:

As long as I am posting, I have a less pressing concern regarding the two Ibuki class armored cruiser/battlecruisers, but because they are slightly beyond my period I probably don't need them (yet). Panzerschiffes has them on offer, but I am in the process of replacing my old Panzerschiffes. (They were the core of my old collection, and wonderful in their own way, but they look out of place when trying to share the gaming table with WTJ and GHQ ships. I've tried to pimp them up by gluing on various do-dads, but with little success). I would also welcome your ideas on a Ibuki class substitute.

You have run into the phantom ship zone. The ships were launched after Russo-Japanese war so are not included there. Japan did not aggressively take part in WWI so the fleet is poorly represented with models there. The ships did not take part in WWII so are not included there.

You may look into Viking Forge as the quality is good (but your ships are not there)
vikingforge.datasquire.net

I too like the idea of this war. One of these days I'll put it together myself.

The Kashima class is at Molniya Miniatures and the Ibuki, Settsu and Aki classes are available from Panzerschiffe. I know you said you're getting rid of the Panzerschiffes, but those are the only 1/2400 models of the semi-dreadoughts and semi-BCs I'm aware of. <shrug>

- Ix

@gamershs,

Yes, the period from about 1905 to 1910 is poorly covered for naval miniatures.

It is, however, an interesting period. Firstly for all the reasons the pre-dreadnought fleets were interesting, and secondly because although there were dreadnoughts (and semi-dreadnoughts) there were so few of them that fleets were necessarily comprised principally of pre-dreadnoughts. The resulting mix is tactically interesting. After a bit of research, I was surprised to learn how few dreadnoughts existed until about 1911 or so.

And thank you for mentioning Viking Forge.

@ Yellow Admiral,

Good catch noticing that Molniya Miniatures has the Kashima. I don't have any Molniya miniatures. There are some photographs on their site, but I'm still having trouble determining whether the details are sharp enough share a squadron with WTJ and GHQ. Given that they have a bunch of ships I would love to add to my little fleet, I think I'll put in a small order so I can see for myself.

The photos on the Molniya site show masts on the ships, but note they are not included in the actual models. Do they have holes in the model to help place a wire? (As WTJ ships do). If people have thoughts on Molniya (masts, detail, customer service, etc), please share (he says, hijacking his own thread).

So few Dreadnoughts is not that unusual. The Dreadnought came out in 1906 and was built on a rush basis. The average Dreadnought build time was 2-3 years which tied up construction till launched (freeing up the dock) means that the first new Dreadnoughts would start to appear in 1908 to 1909. There are not that many docks that could handle the construction so not that many ships could be going on at one time. After launch it freed up the dock while the ship was being fitted out.

Are you willing to talk about what you're planning to do? I don't know about anyone else but I'm pretty interested.

I started this same project 4-5 years ago. I have all the GWAS maps for the W. Pacific, most of the major vessels in 1/3000 scale, and a lot of civilian stuff too (for use as cruiser prey, transports, and neutral "international incident generators", heh). I got stuck on tactical rules, so the project halted before I got a campaign started.

I decided on late 1907 as the proper start date, opening with a Japanese surprise conquest of the Philippines. To make the war fun, I have to conveniently ignore Japan's post-RJW economic problems, but I was looking for a purely pre-dreadnought fight so I wanted the South Carolinas to come in only at the tail end of the war, if at all.

- Ix

Also interested in your project!

-Will

Been working on an idea for an interesting game. In 1893 the ex missionaries (who had been given land and now were fruit and sugar cane growers) staged an overthrow of the monarchy in Hawaii. In this alternate history the revolt was put down, the revolutionaries were killed in the combat (or shot) and their land was confiscated. The US protected cruiser that was "visiting" did not have time to take part and took on the families of the growers and any of the belligerents that were captured back to the US.

The Hawaiian monarch diplomatically played one country against another (US, UK, Japan, Russia, Germany and others) until settling on becoming a protectorate of Russia (no Russo-Japanese war and have the Russian fleet :>) in 1907. The US (have the US fleet :>) was infuriated and so declared that the growers property was illegally seized and so Hawaii is a US "protectorate" and you have the Hawaiian war.

The Russians were able to get a convoy to Hawaii before the war started so there are troops and supplies there along with a Russian Navel squadron. By mutual agreement, only forces within 500 miles of Hawaii will be involved in the war (no Russian raiders along the US coast and no US privateers taking Russian ships on the high seas).

I don't have any Molniya miniatures. There are some photographs on their site, but I'm still having trouble determining whether the details are sharp enough share a squadron with WTJ and GHQ.

Me too, and I've never wanted one enough to pay the asking price. They're pretty expensive.

I suspect they look fine in person. I find the VF and CinC and GHQ miniatures mix pretty well on the table, and many Panzerschiffes do too if modified enough and not mixed within the same class. I actually like many of the Panzerschiffe WWI cruisers just fine.

- Ix

@Yellow Admiral & wminsing,

Flattering that you're interested in my little project! It is still very much in its planning stages (aside from the ship acquisition part, which, Tsukuba aside, is coming along nicely). Inspiration and a good deal of useful information is coming from the book "War Plan Orange", by Edward Miller, which covers U.S. war planning concerning the Japanese from 1897 to the Second World War.

One issue (I'm not sure if it qualifies as a problem) is the likely limited options the U.S. player has to properly get at the Japanese. Before World War I, the Marshalls and Carolines were still held by the Germans, and so were not available as stepping stones in a U.S. advance across the Pacific. There was really only an advance staged through Guam, which would likely be seized and fortified by the Japanese right off the bat, or a descent from the Aleutians (problematic) or an advance from the other direction via the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans (also problematic).

I'm hoping to keep the campaign rules reasonably simple, but with a sufficiently robust logistical rules to reflect the hurdles involved in projecting military force across the Pacific Ocean during the age of steam. For a tactical system I am planning to use General Quarters II, modified for pre-dreadnought operations. (For, again, simplicity).

I find sea-zones easier to work with than hexes or map plotting for movement and spotting, and was pleased to find a computer game by the name of "Making History: The Great War" which has a handy map of the entire planet divided into sea and land zones. The only function of "Making History" would be to use screenshots of portions of its map, which I could enhance with the necessary anchorages and so forth. I reduced image of part of its map is shown below:

The actual maps is rather sharper than shown here, and one can zoom in or out for screenshots. Also of note, it has a 1912 variant, (i.e., pre-Balkan Wars) so the map has mostly correct political boundaries for the Edwardian Period.

For the campaign layer I'm still unsettled even most of the basics: movement, range, spotting, supply, and land combat. For all, I'm aiming for simplicity, especially the land system which will be highly abstracted. I wish I could regale you with tales of a polished system, but I'm not there yet. I am, however, interested in any ideas or input you might have. No doubt others have gone down this road before (or cruised these waters, to keep a nautical flavor to the conversation).

Once I have a system worked out, I'll probably do a test run first an a much smaller conflict. The Pacific, as they say, is big.

@ gamershs,

That's an interesting idea for a scenario. U.S. v. Russian wars during the pre-dreadnought era are difficult to create without taking similar liberties with history. Your idea reminds me of a mini-campaign I ran years ago (1993?) of a U.S. and Russian war fought over Alaska. The idea was that the U.S. had never purchased Alaska from the Russians (which historically occurred in 1867) and in 1903 an Alaska gold rush brought in a flood of American prospectors that clashed with the Russian authorities. After a couple of ugly incidents, the American yellow press revs up the jingoism, and presto -- a war.

The scenario required both sides to bring in troops and keep them supplied in order to win a very abstractly handled ground war, as well as encouraging them to interfere with the enemy's efforts to do the same. The U.S. was bringing in troops/supplies from the west coast ports, especially Seattle, while the Russians were bringing troops/supplies over from Vladivostok. Another fun aspect was that the "inside passage" -- the network of islands along Alaska's south eastern coast -- was a great place for naval battles and naval ambushes.