Help support TMP


"Russian Grenadiers 1805 Mitre vs Shako: Inspection system" Topic


16 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board


Areas of Interest

Napoleonic

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Recent Link


Top-Rated Ruleset

Tusk


Rating: gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star 


Featured Showcase Article

GallopingJack Checks Out The Terrain Mat

Mal Wright Fezian goes to sea with the Terrain Mat.


Featured Profile Article

The Simtac Tour

The Editor is invited to tour the factory of Simtac, a U.S. manufacturer of figures in nearly all periods, scales, and genres.


Current Poll


Featured Book Review


1,802 hits since 28 Dec 2015
©1994-2021 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

paperbattles28 Dec 2015 1:23 a.m. PST

Hi everyone,
I read the 3 or 4 posts regarding this topic, because I wanted to create my Russian Army for the battle of Austerlitz.
I simply summarize the information I've gotten here:
Every Grenadier Regiment had:
1 battalion grenadiers + 2 battallions fusiliers
Every Musketeer Regiment had:
1 battalion grenadier + 2 battalion musketeer.

The problem is the head-wear of the Grenadiers (and therefore of the Fusiliers). Did they fight with mitre or shako?
According to the information I've gotten, surely at the battle of Austerlitz fought with the mitre the following battalions of grenadiers:
*Novij Ingermanland Musketeer Rgt
*Old (starij) Ingermanland Musketeer Rgt
*Moskowskij (grenadier regiment)
*Vladimirskij Musketeer Rgt
*Kievskij (grenadier regt)
*Fanagoriskij (grenadier regt)
*Narvskij Musketeer regt
*Malorossiski (grenadier regt)

(Obviously there is also the Pavlov regiment and some others that by sure wore the mitre at the epoch, but they didn't participate to the battle of Austerlitz: *Pavlov, *Ekaterinenbourg etc )
Starting from an information about the Caucasian inspection where it is told that "all men of that inspection"already wore the shako, I considered that if the grenadiers of that regiment in that inspection wore mitre also the other regiment of the same inspection did the same; this system will give a quite accurate idea of the regiments that at the battle of Austerlitz wore the mitre. And so:
*ARCHANGEL Musketeerl Regiment: Lithuania Inspection (where there is the Ekaterinenbourg Regiment) so its grenadiers wore the mitre.
*PSKOV Musketeer Regt: Lithuania Inspection (as above); grenadiers with mitre
*JAROSLAVSKIJ Musketeer Regt: Dniestr Inspection (where there was the Novj Ingermanland regiment with mitre); its grenadiers wore mitre
*BRIANSKIJ Musketeers Regt: Ucraina Inspection (where there was the Malorusskij Regt with mitre) its grenadiers wore the mitre
*MOSKOWSKIJ Musketeers Regt (not to be confused with the Moskow grenadiers regt): Kiev Inspection (where there was the Narvskij regt with mitre); hence its grenadiers wore the mitre too.
*VIATSKIJ Musketeer regt: Inspection Kiev (as above): hence its grenadiers wore mitre
*KURSK and PERM Musketeers Rgt: Smolensk Inspection; no reference; hence they wore shako
*VYBORG Musketeers: Brest Inspection (whrere there was the Old Ingermanland regt with mitre ) hence its grenadiers wore mitre; NB in this inspectionb there is also the Rgt Apcheron, that is known because one of its officers wrote they got the shako just before the battle of Austerlitz; so this inspection was in transition. I prefer to think they had mitre, because I don't trust 100% on this chronicle, while the mitre of the other regiment was found on the battlefield. (but it's possible also the Shako);
*RIAZAN Musketeers rgt. Finalnd Inspection: shako
*GALICIA Musketeers: Ucraina Inspection. As above: hence mitre
*BOUTYRSK Musketeers Rgt: Kiev Inspection, As above: hence its grenadiers wore mitre too
*AZOV + PODOLSK Musketeers: Brest Inspection; as above:hence their grenadiers wore mitre
*APCHERON Musketeer regiment: shako
*NOVGOROD Musketeers: Kiev Inspection: as above; its grenadiers wore mitre
*SMOLENSK Musketeers; Ucraina Inspection; as above; its grenadiers wore mitre.
*IMPERIAL GUARD: all with shako
*LEIB-GRENADIER with shako


Please feel free to mend this scheme; by the way it has its logic.

Bye

AUXILIAPAL28 Dec 2015 3:35 a.m. PST

Thanks paperbattle, very interesting!

14Bore28 Dec 2015 12:44 p.m. PST

Your batting a hornets nest you know, but I commend the effort

paperbattles28 Dec 2015 4:43 p.m. PST

well let's hope someone will help with some new information

paperbattles28 Dec 2015 11:51 p.m. PST

report
"*VYBORG Musketeers: Brest Inspection (whrere there was the Old Ingermanland regt with mitre ) hence its grenadiers wore mitre; NB in this inspection there is also the Rgt Apcheron, that is known because one of its officers wrote they got the shako just before the battle of Austerlitz; so this inspection was in transition. I prefer to think they had mitre, because I don't trust 100% on this chronicle, while the mitre of the other regiment was found on the battlefield. (but it's possible also the Shako); "


well I changed my opinion. The Brest Inspection's regiments got the new shako just before the battle of Austerlitz, but the Old Ingeramanland, being one of the oldest of the Russian Army kept the mitres for the grenadiers. Hence I would do the Grenadiers of the Vyborg Regiment in shako.

paperbattles12 Apr 2019 9:01 a.m. PST

HI THIS WAS MY OLD POST THAT I REPORT HERE IN ORDER TO MAKE JUST ONE POST

Hi everyone,
I read the 3 or 4 posts regarding this topic, because I wanted to create my Russian Army for the battle of Austerlitz.
I simply summarize the information I've gotten here:
Every Grenadier Regiment had:
1 battalion grenadiers + 2 battallions fusiliers
Every Musketeer Regiment had:
1 battalion grenadier + 2 battalion musketeer.

The problem is the head-wear of the Grenadiers (and therefore of the Fusiliers). Did they fight with mitre or shako?
According to the information I've gotten, surely at the battle of Austerlitz fought with the mitre the following battalions of grenadiers:
*Novij Ingermanland Musketeer Rgt
*Old (starij) Ingermanland Musketeer Rgt
*Moskowskij (grenadier regiment)
*Vladimirskij Musketeer Rgt
*Kievskij (grenadier regt)
*Fanagoriskij (grenadier regt)
*Narvskij Musketeer regt
*Malorossiski (grenadier regt)

(Obviously there is also the Pavlov regiment and some others that by sure wore the mitre at the epoch, but they didn't participate to the battle of Austerlitz: *Pavlov, *Ekaterinenbourg etc )
Starting from an information about the Caucasian inspection where it is told that "all men of that inspection"already wore the shako, I considered that if the grenadiers of that regiment in that inspection wore mitre also the other regiment of the same inspection did the same; this system will give a quite accurate idea of the regiments that at the battle of Austerlitz wore the mitre. And so:
*ARCHANGEL Musketeerl Regiment: Lithuania Inspection (where there is the Ekaterinenbourg Regiment) so its grenadiers wore the mitre.
*PSKOV Musketeer Regt: Lithuania Inspection (as above); grenadiers with mitre
*JAROSLAVSKIJ Musketeer Regt: Dniestr Inspection (where there was the Novj Ingermanland regiment with mitre); its grenadiers wore mitre
*BRIANSKIJ Musketeers Regt: Ucraina Inspection (where there was the Malorusskij Regt with mitre) its grenadiers wore the mitre
*MOSKOWSKIJ Musketeers Regt (not to be confused with the Moskow grenadiers regt): Kiev Inspection (where there was the Narvskij regt with mitre); hence its grenadiers wore the mitre too.
*VIATSKIJ Musketeer regt: Inspection Kiev (as above): hence its grenadiers wore mitre
*KURSK and PERM Musketeers Rgt: Smolensk Inspection; no reference; hence they wore shako
*VYBORG Musketeers: Brest Inspection (whrere there was the Old Ingermanland regt with mitre ) hence its grenadiers wore mitre; NB in this inspectionb there is also the Rgt Apcheron, that is known because one of its officers wrote they got the shako just before the battle of Austerlitz; so this inspection was in transition. I prefer to think they had mitre, because I don't trust 100% on this chronicle, while the mitre of the other regiment was found on the battlefield. (but it's possible also the Shako);
*RIAZAN Musketeers rgt. Finalnd Inspection: shako
*GALICIA Musketeers: Ucraina Inspection. As above: hence mitre
*BOUTYRSK Musketeers Rgt: Kiev Inspection, As above: hence its grenadiers wore mitre too
*AZOV + PODOLSK Musketeers: Brest Inspection; as above:hence their grenadiers wore mitre
*APCHERON Musketeer regiment: shako
*NOVGOROD Musketeers: Kiev Inspection: as above; its grenadiers wore mitre
*SMOLENSK Musketeers; Ucraina Inspection; as above; its grenadiers wore mitre.
*IMPERIAL GUARD: all with shako
*LEIB-GRENADIER with shako


I IMPROVED AND CHANGED MY MIND. I STARTED TO NOTE THAT ALL THE GRENADIERS REGIMENT WHOSE HEADWEAR WERE FOUND ON THE BATTLEFIELD OF AUSTERLITZ WERE JUST MITERS.
SO I DECIDED THAT ALL THE GRENADIERS REGIMENT WORE MITERS AT AUSTERLITZ.
MOREOVER CONSIDERING THAT THE PAVLOV REGIMENT STILL WORE IN 1807 THE MITERS IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT EVEN IN THE SAINT PETERSBURG INSPECTION THEY DIDN'T CHANGE.

paperbattles 12 Apr 2019 9:56 a.m. PST
So I went on with the Musketeers regiments for their grenadiers regiment; I noticed that the Ukraina, Dniester, Kiev inspection wore (some evidences) the miters, while the others (brest – with exepion of the historical regiment Old Ingerland – and Lithuania Inspections) wore shako.

So for the battle of Austerlitz:
ALL Grenadiers REgiment wore miters and fusiliers too

BATTLE OF AUSTERLITZ

Old Ingerland Miter
Archangelsgorod Shako
Pskov shako shako
kiev miter
New ingerland miter
jaroslav miter
bryansk miter
vladimir miter
Vyatska miter
moscow miter
viborg shako
perm shako
kursk shako
Fanagorie miter
Butyrsk miter
Galice miter
narva miter
Pdolsk shako
malarossia miter
azov shako
smolensk miter
Apsheron shako
novgorod miter
Imperial Guard shako
Leib-grenadiers shako

Major Bloodnok12 Apr 2019 2:06 p.m. PST

One question. Since some grenadier reg'ts. still had the grenadier bns. in mitre, were the fusiler bns. still wearing fusilier caps?

Widowson14 Apr 2019 8:39 p.m. PST

I have never heard of an association by Inspection. I have never seen any research or evidence that, if one grenadier bn in an inspection wore the miter, they all did. I don't think any such assertion is supportable without some kind of evidence, and I don't see any such evidence here. I don't think there is any such connection.

"The Brest Inspection's regiments got the new shako just before the battle of Austerlitz, but the Old Ingeramanland, being one of the oldest of the Russian Army kept the mitres for the grenadiers. Hence I would do the Grenadiers of the Vyborg Regiment in shako."

this makes little sense, if any, and it belies the whole assertion that, if one grenadier regiment in an inspection wore a miter, they all did. Just because the Old Ingermanland regiment was old, does not mean it did not receive the new shakos when they came out. And why this would lead one to conclude that the Vyborg Regiment would be in shako is beyond my comprehension.

At Austerlitz and afterward, the shako was standard. It is therefore a matter of finding evidence that this or that regiment had retained the miter, rather than speculating that, since one regiment in an inspection retained the miter, then they all did. It may very well be that in each inspection there may have been a battalion of grenadiers had retained its old miters. That is no reason to conclude that they all did.

paperbattles15 Apr 2019 3:11 a.m. PST

It was just a speculation in to have a sort of vademecum … an idea without the pretense to be perfect like neither yours actually is. Thanks

paperbattles02 May 2019 6:44 a.m. PST

Major Bloodnok, this is a good question.. As far as I know no fusilier mitra was found .. but I am not sure; it would be also weird that the Grenadier battalion of the Grenadier Regiment held the mitre, while the fusiliers substutued it with the shako.. any help is welcomed… I will post a specific post on this matter

Scott Sutherland05 May 2019 4:21 a.m. PST

Suggest you read the following

link
This is effectively the Russian official history of the uniforms of the army. This volume covers the grenadiers from 1801 to 1825.

From this, it implies only the Grenadier battalion in each Gren Regiment wears the grenadier caps (ie furazhnaya I grenaderskaya shapki). Fusiliers have another cap.

The cap is replaced in the regulation of 13 February 1805 — In all Grenadier regiments, the former grenadier and fusilier caps of combatant lower ranks are replaced by new ones based on the pattern established in 1803 for noncombatants, except not quilted.

There does not appear to be any distinction on whether grenadiers have mitre or shako according to inspection. The regulations seem to specify details on the assumption all have a consistent uniform.

paperbattles28 Jan 2021 10:17 a.m. PST

I don't know how many of you spent some time in the Arm; I was officer for some time in the Army. I can tell you that when the uniforms change (and we are speaking of the XX Century in peace-time) before all units change their equipement a lot of time must pass.
Let's consider that the order to change the mitre was issued in February 1805.The Russian Army arrived on October, it means that it started to move around 90 days before, or even earlier so in June. In means that in all the Russian had from March 1805 to June 1805 to provide the new shako on immense distances. Quinte impossible I would say. I moreove add that keeping the mitre was considered an honour and the evidence in the Pavlov Regiment that was allowed (in 1807!!) to keep it as a PRIZE by the Tsar. So it is true these are speculations (Widowson) but when you lack a clear evidence the speculations help… and moreover I am a wargamer and at least (dear widowson) I gave an idea…

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP28 Jan 2021 1:03 p.m. PST

You seem to come to life every two years, wonder why? Is it a vampire trait?

All this piffle is laid to rest in the connected threads now in the 'Redux' thread that are shown by authorative research into the matters you raise.

The abstract and singular premise that orders (decrees) are obeyed instantly and ennacted, by your own admission, take time, and indeed military regularity to conform. Discontinued equipment was not replaced until no longer usable.

The contradictions offered in your various recanted arguments simply deny logic and don't in many case make sense. Some do. Others have decided, I'm ok with their versions.
regards

paperbattles02 Feb 2021 7:27 a.m. PST

My timing is not your concern..
To the point: my poor English does not let me fully understand your sentence "The abstract and singular premise that orders (decrees) are obeyed instantly and ennacted, by your own admission, take time, and indeed military regularity to conform. Discontinued equipment was not replaced until no longer usable." … maybe if we start to use some of other language you surely master, we would better understand each other, maybe… by the way I don't recant, I simply make arguments better.. but you know .. we, vampires, are too elevated forms of life for the simple-minded…. ed de hoc satis

Widowson02 Feb 2021 4:40 p.m. PST

Dear paperbattles,

I appreciate your input. I have long sought the answers to the miter question for my Russian armies, and I'm very glad that Redbox makes early Russians in miter. Don't let the criticism get you down. We all want to learn, here.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP02 Feb 2021 6:56 p.m. PST

>>Don't let the criticism

Its a discussion, not criticism. Sorry my "two years"
joke fell flat.

You see when errors are depicted as facts:-

1- The cap is replaced in the regulation of 13 February 1805—

Yes, but were they in the regiments in service or depot? That has been uneqivocally confirmed as false. The statement is simply made, however the assumption or inference itself, like Bardin 1812, is completely wrong.
When the illustrious Ospreys (authorship) repeat the same line, without have fact checked… when they and others depict illustrations of 'Leib-Garde' in mitres, despite the entire guard infantry including the jaeger battalion issued and wearing the '1803' shako etc.

2- There does not appear to be any distinction on whether grenadiers have mitre or shako according to inspection.

Yes this been uneqivocally confirmed as false. The statement is simply made, however the inference itself is completely wrong.

3- The regulations seem to specify details on the assumption all have a consistent uniform.

And yet, again confirmed as false- because regiments in differing theatres, Inspections and operations all had different periods and durations of clothing and equipment tenure.

'When worn out' due to economic expense, seems to be the most forgotten rule. And yes, it's confirmed at least by defacto logic that some inspections were fully re-equipped when others were not. Note that subsequent 'regulations' (cf Conrad) had to be issued when conferring the same items on jager when they weren't apparently included. But they were, just not named.

"Wait until we have 7000 shako's in store, then begin issue… I don't think so…"

regards d

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.