"Confederate Blockade Runners" Topic

Did the like of AD Vance fly Confederate colours when at sea?

Alan

Do you mean the CSS Advance?
link

Major B, it's known by both names – same ship.

Major B, it's known by both names – same ship.

I can find no reference to a ship named the AD Vance?

Look here:

auction

@JimDuncanUK:
Are you serious? Just because someone puts up an auction on eBay for a commemoration cover of a ship called the CSS A.D. Vance does not prove in any way, shape or form the existence of an actual ship by that name!!

Actually, if you look at the Wikipedia article for the ship itself ( link ), the photo of the ship is indeed titled, A. D. Vance, and this discrepancy is explained in the first paragraph of the article. The article for the ship is linked off of the article that MajorB listed.

So, if we're going to use Wikipedia as a step to get up on our high horses, maybe we should read more than one of the articles on that topic.
BWW

and this discrepancy is explained in the first paragraph of the article.

Here is the first paragraph of the article:
"USS Advance, later known as the USS Frolic, was a blockade runner captured by the Union Navy during the closing years of the American Civil War. She was purchased by the Union Navy and outfitted as a gunboat and assigned to the blockade of the waterways of the Confederate States of America. She also served as dispatch ship and supply vessel when military action eventually slowed down."
link

Where does it explain the discrepancy?

And when I said that I could find no reference to a ship named the A.D Vance anywhere I had discounted Wikipedia as a source, even though it gives the name in the picture caption.

@MajorB

It was a reference, you said you could not find a reference, it doesn't mean to say it is a good one.

Your reference, link mentioned it.

Here's another one:

link

And another one:

link

Look again buddy!

Some blockade runners were owned by the CSA government, so they might fly a CSA flag when at sea (unless they were being deceptive). Other blockade runners were privately owned and probably flew the flag of whatever country they came from (mostly Britain).

FWIW I've been involved in ACW naval gaming for nearly 30 ears, I've seen the name listed both ways all that time,and the first time I saw it the name was listed as A D Vance, which got me wondering whether there was a person of the same name. I still don't know the reason for the two listings, whether the apparent person's name was a subterfuge, of if there was another reason.

MajorB,
You're right, it's in the second paragraph. Here's a clipping from that paragraph, where it says:

"was launched on 3 July 1862 as the Clyde packet Lord Clyde – was jointly purchased by the state of North Carolina and the firm of Lord, Power & Co. to serve as a blockade runner during the Civil War. She was renamed A. D. Vance (in some sources written as "Advance") in honor of the Governor of North Carolina, Zebulon B. Vance."

My sincerest apologies to you for listing the wrong paragraph. I can admit my mistakes; maybe you should too. Also, since you "discounted Wikipedia as a source" then you probably shouldn't use it to support your own arguments.

As to the OP, since she was owned by North Carolina and a private company, maybe a state flag? It would be something different, at any rate.
BWW
EDIT: Edited to more accurately reflect the quote about discounting Wikipedia.

Your reference, link mentioned it.

"Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name."

Here's another one:

A flag shop is hardly a reliable source.

And another one:

A secondary source, originally published 2010. The best yet, but still only a secondary source, which of course may be inaccurate. Any corroboration?

My sincerest apologies to you for listing the wrong paragraph.

Thank you.

I can admit my mistakes; maybe you should too.

I certainly will, if I make any.

Also, since you "discounted Wikipedia as a source" then you probably shouldn't use it to support your own arguments.

I have not used it to support my own arguments.

Major B , I have researched British built blockade runners for over 25 years and agree with entirely with BrianW's assessment. There is no concrete evidence about what flag the ship flew but its likely that it was the North Carolina State flag or possibly a Confederate naval ensign. The ship was called A.D.Vance but was often incorrectly referred to as Advance by some sources.

The ship was called A.D.Vance but was often incorrectly referred to as Advance by some sources.

Can you cite any credible sources as to the name A.D. Vance? I have been unable to find any …

Perhaps I should be sorry in placing this posting in the first instance!

Tis the season of goodwill to all men so, at the risk of being ignored or stifled: children, please play nice.

Alan,
No need for you to be sorry. It's an interesting question, and the picture of the painting you posted provides a possible answer. As to the rest of it, I forgot the rule about arguing with people on the Internet; so I think I owe you an apology for hijacking your thread.
BWW

I have seen the ship listed by both names in wargames rules and figure catalogs. I have never bother to try to research which (if either) is correct in primary sources.

As to which flag I would guess home nationality. CSA blockade runners might also have flown the flag of other nations as a disguise against the USN.

Interestingly enough, there is no record for a vessel under any permutation of that name in the "Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies".

Just sayin'…….

In the 30+ years of fooling around with ACW naval, I've also have seen both spellings. The citation from DANFS (Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Naval History and Heritage Command) gives the spelling as A.D. Vance while under Confederate service and Advance after being folded into the USN. See link below:

hazegray.org/danfs/csn/a.txt

hazegray.org/danfs/csn is a brilliant resource – thanks Charlie 12!

I have Warships and Naval Battles of the Civil War by Tony Gibbons (a well recognized source) right here and the ship is listed as A.D. Vance under the Confederate ships listing. In ships of the Civil War, 1861-1865 by Kevin Daugherty, a newer and less well recognized source, both names are listed. In A Short History of the Civil War at Sea by Spencer Tucker, also a well recognized source, it's listed as the AD Vance. Make of it what you will, as you are no doubt going to do.

"I can admit my mistakes; maybe you should too."

"I certainly will, if I make any."

Hmmmmmm

Wikipedia as an unreliable source is largely a myth. A lot of knowledge people and experts in their fields constantly fact check any proposed edits. Not just anyone can edit a page there are some hoops you have to jump through first.

Anyone who bothers to check out the sources at the bottom of the page can see that they are more often than not back up what is written. Anything that is suspect is noted on the page with a warning. Considering how many pages and subjects covered. I think Wiki does a decent job.

As with any source it is best to get multiple ones. Now get torches fired up. Just remember not to light up the pitchforks.

Often true but in a few cases the experts are extremely picky about which sources they take and jealously guard certain pages to preserve their point of view. Often justified as some sort of academic rigour.

"Can you cite any credible sources as to the name A.D. Vance? I have been unable to find any …"

This seems to be a reasonable request and as it was addressed to me I will answer it.

Firstly I will say that there is a lot of false information on the internet and also in some published sources on Blockade runners so it is easy to understand your doubts regarding the accuracy of this name. Errors like this are of little consequence to most people other than historians who sometimes take things a little to seriously.

Here are a couple of sources citing the name A.D.Vance named for the Governor of North Carolina.

1/
Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion. Series I – Volume 10: North Atlantic Blockading Squadron (the name A.D.Vance is mentioned several times in reports on page 456.)"

2/
The name A.D. Vance was also used in a consular report from Bermuda written by US consul Charles Maxwell Allen on July 13th 1864 and addressed to the Hon Wm. Seward, secretary of state in Washington D.C. reporting the names of the blockade runners currently in St George.

A happy Christmas and new year to all TMP contributors

Here are a couple of sources citing the name A.D.Vance named for the Governor of North Carolina.

Excellent! Thank you very much wargamer6, just what I was looking for!

On Wikipedia, there is a reason why most higher academic institutions forbid it being used as a reference. Wikipedia articles are about consensus not truth necessarily. R (former Academic Librarian)

Well the wartime governor of NC was Zebulon B. Vance,
so the A.D. initials were not his – however, there is
in NC SW of Winston-Salem about 35 miles an unincorporated
community named Advance, NC, population about 1,400.

I doubt it has/had much to do with the blockade runner
except that researchers way back when might have confused
the community's name with that of the ship, but IDK
for certain.

Not that it will make any difference when we are all
expired and gone, now will it ?

"Well the wartime governor of NC was Zebulon B. Vance,
so the A.D. initials were not his"

Yes, I noticed that but all the earliest primary sources use the same name A.D.Vance. I would speculate that it was more a play on his surname, by adding an Ad to his surname it becomes Ad-Vance . When people connected to the ship were asked about the name they would say she was called A. D. Vance so this was how it was written up in reports although Vance's eldest son was called Andrew and his father David I would discount this in favor of the former theory.

Interestingly, page 88 of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the rebellion, Series II, Volume I, (the official statistical data) clearly lists her both as "advance", and as "A.D. Vance". It also calls her "Frolic", which she entered US service under and "Lord Clyde". I would say calling her "CSS" is the mistake. She was never in Confederate service nor ever considered so.