"Love/Hate the Russians" Topic

Just venting here after yet more disturbing research.

Forget about the fact that the language is almost impossible. Here we have the only nation in the era that refused to number their regiments. Infantry, cavalry, even Cossacks. Only the poor Jagers were numbered. What a pain it is to try to ID them on the bottom of their stands! I just number them starting with "1" and keep the names in a journal. Better not lose that journal! Just to make matters worse, each source has a different English spelling for each regiment, or so it seems.

The very next obstacle is flags. What a pain! Trying to figure out which regiments carried which model flag in any given year is a research subject all by itself. I haven't even approached the cavalry standards yet. And boy howdy how I'm looking forward to that!

Then the real shovel to the face! That damn 1812 kiwer, coal shuttle shako was never even issued! How many hundreds of thousands of figures in every scale are just plain WRONG, and in a big way! I work in 1/72 plastic, and there is not one single mfr who makes the right hat. Sho Boki might be the only 15mm mfr who's got it right. Zvezda's gorgeous Hussars? Also fatally flawed!

As for the early period, HaT makes a decent set of line infantry figures, but the promised command set never materialized. Almost every officer and musician has to be converted from something else. HaT also made a pretty decent set of early jagers in the "top hat" shako, but now it turns out that only about 4 or 5 regiments ever received them. Are my units included in that number? Hell no. In order to be accurate, HaT's jager need head swaps from the line infantry set, and since the jager heads are worthless, you pay double for having an accurate unit of jagers.

The nightmare never ends.

Well…in lieu of the departed Sasha…

I very much like having the regiments named after specific Russian towns/areas, as it ties them to the land and the period--much more expressive than dry old, IR3…

There are two ways to go with Russian names and that is to either translate or transliterate (this latter tends to contribute to the multiplicity of spellings). Translation is generally easier, e.g.: Pavlovsk Grenadiers, instead of Pavlovskii, skiy, sky. Imho, anyway, and unless you're actually speaking Russian, it's just as authentic.

Flags are a bit irritating, but since there is limited evidence, you're perfectly free to equip what's available or what suits your fancy. Who can argue with you? If they try, ask them to produce primary sources…

Gingerich's page has a summary of the latest discussion on the 1812 Kiwer, and the exact question as to who wore what will never likely be determined. So, equip as you will--until someone creates a time machine, nobody on the planet can prove you wrong. Perry's 28mm plastic has both kiwer versions available and to be honest, unless you play with your chin on the bayonets, it's very difficult to tell the difference on the table. Your eyes may vary.

And the other loose end (that I have discussed here at length), the color of Russian artillery equipment is also dealt with on Gingerich's page with the most accurate conclusion that I believe is out there.

Enjoy!

I admit my post dealt mostly with the "hate" aspects of Russian Napoleonic armies. I didn't feel the need to address the "love."

As a kid, I saw the Russian version of War and Peace at the theater. That pretty much did it for me. I have ADCs and others included with names from the novel/movie. And of course, Tolstoy's Corps will be included in the 1812 OB, just on general principle.

And yeah, naming the regiments is very romantic. It's also unique. So I like it.

I couldn't remember my passwords to get onto the HaT discussion forum, but since their 1812 Russian Infantry set is way behind schedule, I had hoped to prevail upon them to change the hats to the 1809 issue shako. That would be good progress.

Gentlemen, I believe you are both on the money and I sympathise completely. This is not rivet counting – it's a hobby in itself this pursuit of accuracy and the pursuit of excellence. You need to be 'particular' or 'exacting' comes with that ever present price of frustration. Jeffreyw3 is completely correct inasmuch as if you want to get an army on the table, be prepared to invent and make you best educated guess in a vacuum. Then wait for someone in Russia most probably to start the research and discoveries we need down the track and make your changes accordingly. All good to read and follow in the meantime.

+1 for Love.
Russian Grand Artillery Battery at our Eylau game.

Use infantry in forage caps and greatcoats- covers a multitude of sins!

If I wanted my figures to look like that, I'd go with WW I.

I bought flags sheets of Russian flags and put them in regiments. I made zero attempt to put the "right" flag with the right regiment. Most, including myself, don't know or care. Nor was the fun diminished. They fought just fine and no one ever said a word about it.

I have lots of sympathy for you, working on the First Western Army from Borodino and almost there. I have list of units by their correct title but have numbered them for my own sanity. Other than that I feel your pain.

79th – There is a lot to what you write. In the end, you have the right attitude. But when I think the correct, accurate info is out there, it nags at me. I can't help it.

I didn't even get into grenadier miters. There is reason to believe that up through Eylau, a number of Russian units still wore them – not just the Pavlov Grenadiers. I painted a unit of HaT early Russians converted with Italeri miter head swaps.

For the life of me, I cannot remember if they are the grenadier battalion of the Moscow Musketeer Regiment, or the Moscow Grenadier Regiment. Some days I just don't care, but I still need flags for the unit, so . . .

Check the "Retention of Miters" section here:
link

Correct, accurate info on flags for all Russian regiments throughout the period does not exist to my knowledge. I would gladly stand to be corrected on this.

79th – one more thing:

if you build the 1812-15 Russians, it doesn't make much difference. They all have red collars and cuffs. Only the shoulder straps vary, and each division has white, red, yellow, etc. So there really is no way of making the exact regimental distinction from the uniform in that period.

But a large part of my love for the Russians is in the early period, when they wore their inspection colors. In fact, you can identify an infantryman in the 1805-07 period right down to his regiment, battalion, and company by the uniform distinctions. No other army can make that claim.

And the Soum Hussars! Yellow dolman and turquoise pelisse! You won't find a prettier cavalryman. I converted Zvezda figs with HaT early Russian infantry heads. Best unit I ever built.

Jeffrey – I've read and even printed that article, and it's just about the ONLY information on miters in the period. Valuable as all get out, but still pretty slim.

Jeffrey – that same link you provided has a pretty comprehensive section on flags. You have to use other sources to understand it completely, but I think it's all there!

Yes, it does have quite a bit of information about flags--unfortunately, to my knowledge, we cannot say which flags each regiment used at any given time throughout the period. For many, we're covered throughout…for others…

Ginerich's page is an "accumulator" of the latest research, and it's invaluable. If his page conflicts with Viskovatov, he will usually have an explanation.

For further information about these topics, do author searches in the TMP Message Boards for "Sasha" "Seroga" and "Steven H Smith" The information presented in Alexander's posts is from Russian sources and tends to be quite up to date.

For purist.. :-)
I researched and completed flag sheet with all russian infantry flags at Borodino for 6mm figures. With indicating regiments flagpole color and shoulder straps color.
boki.ee/Military_Uniforms/Uniforms_0023/Military.htm

Available, as bonus, with my 6mm Limited Edition Russian Brigade Pack.
boki.ee/Painted_Figs/VENE/RU_6101/Boki_Shop.htm

Sweet! Now if we could get unit strengths…

Done, for Borodino. But only for my EMPEROR ruleset, which is not available yet.

OP: I understand. And yes, I did 1812 Russians. I bought and sold an 1808/09 Russian Army with correct flags, and it was beautiful.

The Russians are my favorite, but I prefer the 1805-08 variety, although I have figures from1809-12 as well. I love the flags!

While working with the Borodino OOB I do mix in different years so as I like mitres a few of my Grenadiers regiments didn't have them in 1812 I still have them. Jagers also as I like the different facings of each regiment.

Jeffrey that was an incredible link……many thanks for that

Gingerich did us all a great service creating and updating that site, but it does take all the fun out of discussing Russian uniform minutiae.

Based on the link Jeffrey provided, it seems that most Russian infantry regiments were still carrying their old 1796-issue flags through the period. Anyone else get that read?

From the research I've done, yes, that appears to be the case, Widowson.

From what I'm seeing, 5 regiments were issued the model 1800 ("St Andrew") flag, only 7 regiments were issued the Model 1803 flag – which I frankly don't believe (but more research is required), and 16 were issued the "St. George" flag with the embroidered accolades, although 5 of those were issued 1815 or later.

I'll want to consult my notes when and if I find them. I find it hard to believe that Tsar Alexander would let the vast majority of his infantry fly flags with his father's cypher on them!

Another interesting claim in that document is that the Guard buttons and other metalwork was copper – not brass. I mentioned this once before and got poo-pooed by some who claimed extant examples in museums proved otherwise. If anyone has a link to those museum shots, they would be much appreciated.

Perhaps the most disappointing claim relates to the early light infantry "top hat" shako. Not only was it supposedly issued to only 8 jager regiments, it was replaced by the standard infantry shako in August of 1803! So no 1st Empire campaign would have them.

This is particularly disappointing to me as a 1/72 plastic modeler. HaT makes a decent set of these, and early Russians of any type are exceeding rare. So in order for the 1805 – 1807 jagers to be accurate, we need to take the early jagers with their bellybag ammo boxes, and do head swaps with early line musketeers. So that doubles the cost (and time) it takes to make such units!

Back to the shako point in the OP- where does the idea come from that the 'coal scuttle' kiwer was never issued? It certainly may not have been universal but there are a number of contemp references and illustrations to its use by units in the field from summer 1812 onwards.

I just got an earful of that on the HaT forum. I'm less worried about it than I was before, though it would still be preferable if HaT would offer 1/72 Russians in the 1809 shako. Nobody else makes them.

But in answer to your question, a number of recent historians have challenged the "coal shuttle" shako because they could find no reference in writing to it being issued, and no existing examples of the shako in museums. We do have to be careful of "contemporary" sources. Many of them are not.

But a consensus on the HaT forum suggests that these latest historians ignore a lot of evidence that this 1812 shako was, in fact worn. Maybe not universally, but commonly.

Me? I don't know what to think at this point.

I will say this, though. I would certainly expect all Russian Guard Infantry to be wearing the "official" issue 1809 shako.

We can continue to argue that their metal work was copper, as the latest info claims.

@ Widowson

"Then the real shovel to the face! That damn 1812 kiwer, coal shuttle shako was never even issued! How many hundreds of thousands of figures in every scale are just plain WRONG, and in a big way! I work in 1/72 plastic, and there is not one single mfr who makes the right hat. Sho Boki might be the only 15mm mfr who's got it right. Zvezda's gorgeous Hussars? Also fatally flawed!"

Just don't panic. That's nonsense…;-)

If Leonov, Popov, Kibovskii really thought that equipment that was not officially acknowledged never existed they would be really bad historians. One cannot just ignore the abundance of contemporary evidence in favour of the existence of the "unofficial" coal scuttle kiwer…

Here a few contemporary sources depicting hussars:

A.A. Lazarev, Lifeguard Hussars, killed at Leipzig.Look at the shako!:

lubelia.users.photofile.ru/photo/lubelia/200661351/xlarge/210364339.jpg

From Giovanni Cappi, Vienna c.1815:

napoleon-online.de/Bilder/cappi_russen_tafel15.jpg
napoleon-online.de/Bilder/cappi_russen_tafel16.jpg
napoleon-online.de/Bilder/cappi_russen_tafel17.jpg

An 1814 illustration by Johann Friedrich Naumann, after Franz Krüger:

forum.napoleon-online.de/showthread.php?3421-Russische-Reiterei-1814

Although I have no interest in Russian infantry or cavalry headgear, I have followed this discussion re the Kiwer with great interest.

It has surfaced many times here and Scharnachtal's posting does seem very convincing.

I started with similar doubts about the conical shako which seemed unique to the 2e Eclaireurs de la Garde Imperiale. It looked too like something from the 1830s.

Taking this further…and far more radical….is a later doubt about the cylindrical shako of light cavalry in French service post 1812. Post Deuxieme Restauration peut etre.. mais under Rod Steiger….not much evidence! It was not as wide at the top as the traditional headgear, but it was not what we see in most late French Hussar/Chasseur models…I think…which is a shame as it looks so good!

Like the Kiwer……….it looks better….

Whereas I like the look of the early shako and busch plume

Horses for courses

But interesting developments

And the cylindrical valise, too. Great stuff.

Another plate representing Russian hussars wearing coal scuttled kiwers (by contemporary Swedish artist Hjalmar Mörner, c. 1813):

europeana.eu/portal/record/2048211/NM_0219071.html#&gid=1&pid=1

I just number Russian line regiments system like as follows 1.6.1.12.VI

Translation 1st battalion 6th regiment 1st brigade 12th division VI Corps. Much easier than spelling long Russian names that cannot be pronounced. Flags based on Borodino OB any OB subsequent in 1813 or 1814 not much of concern.

That's a pretty simplified system, especially when you consider that the Russians did not number their regiments. However, I do paint numbers on the bottoms of their stands rather than try to get the name on there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Flags base on Borodino OB . . ."

Which regiments carried which type of flag is a research project all in itself.

I also like the collar and cuff color distinctions in the early Russian infantry regiments.