"What Sherman ..." Topic

…based upon the time line of the film Kelly's Heroes should Oddball and company really should of had? I know that for the movie they used a post WW II M4A3E4 but if you wanted to do a Kelly's Heroes game (regardless of scale) during the correct timeline what version of Sherman should of Oddball and his band of tankers really been using?

I have surmised that since the film is suppose to be taking place at or near the Battle of Nancy that would put the movie as taking place around early September, 1944. In fact the river that Kelly and his unit are trying to cross most likely would be the Moselle River. So given the timeline would it be logical that in reality Oddball and his platoon of tanks would have been M4s or M4A1s? What are your thoughts. And yes I am asking this as at some point I plan to do a "Bank Job" WW II scenario for a convention. But as I have found out from reading a lot of modeler's blogs creating the tank from the film is a bit of chore if you are going to do it in any scale other than 1/35. My scale of choice for WW II is either 1/56 or 1/100 which is 28 mm and 15 mm respectively. I would still try to have the loud speakers and such other accouterments but do not want to spend the effort and time trying to recreate the exact looking tank.

Thoughts???

Kim

Just watched the movie the other night. Oddball describes his tanks to Kelly as having "your standard 76mm gun".

Hope that helps?

That is perfectly reasonable. I believe Oddball was with the 6th AD, so I believe you would see mostly 75mms sprinkled with a few 76mms during the time frame of the movie.

Personal thoughts are a Sherman is a Sherman, and I wouldn't spend any time worrying about it.

Edit: Well there you go.

I pulled out my copy of Steven Zaloga's Armored Attack 1944. An excellent resource. I paged through it looking for pictures of the 6AD and it definitely is equipped with M4A3s, so M4A3 (76) would be appropriate for Oddball's group. Most of the pictures in Zaloga's book show tanks with the full set of applique armor on the hull and some of them have the applique "chin" armor on the turret.

While I agree that in most cases a Sherman is a Sherman it heightens the experience to use the right version.

m4a3 W 75 with a longer barrel would do fine

Don't forget the loudspeaker and the paint ammo!

Yep went back and watched that particular clip of Oddball describing the tanks to Kelly on Youtube. So yes it would seem I could start with a M4A3 (76) and folks would accept that. Thanks gents.

Kim

Here's a photo someone did of their 1/35 scale build.

And here's a Japanese site of a build:
link

that 1/35th one looks spot on

Oddball's tank was an M4A3 with a 76mm mounted in the standard turret. The 3rd Army was experimenting with this post Normandy as a way to get more 76mm guns into the field as they were starting to do some tank vs tank fighting, most use of armor in Normandy had been infantry support. Postwar the Tokyo depot also made some which may or may not have been deployed to Korea in 1950. An actual M4A3 (76) would have the later T-23 type turret. So if you are looking to make a tank like Oddball's you need an M4A3 (75) and replace the gun with a longer one (and of course Oddball's other amenities). But if you are looking for what Oddball would have actually had, based on his description in the film, it would be an M4A1 (w) 76mm or an M4A3 (w) 76mm without a muzzle brake. The M4A1s had been issued in time for Cobra in July of 1944 and is actually the most likely as it was the most common 76mm tank at the time.

Well stated jowady. No I do not want to create the exact tank from the movie. Rather a close approximation that would be within keeping of the time period. As you have stated a M4A1 (w)75 or an M4A3 (w) 76 sans muzzle brake should do the trick. The loud speakers, extra tubing and all the comforts of home hanging from the tank will be the real challenge and I think most war gamers who see the finished model will know what it is supposed to represent.

Especially since you can buy the crew in (I think) 28mm all set up to be in the hatches..

Well I have Oddbob from Artizan in 28mm who is standing with his hand resting on his side arm. Who makes the 28 mm crew Naz?

On another point from the movie there is of course the famous fight with the three Tiger Tanks. And again I would use models of actual Tiger Is not mocked up T-34s. But here is the thing Western forces rarely ever engaged Tiger tanks, Panthers by the boat load but I think in all there were only three engagements by American forces against Tigers. Not that I would do this scenario without the Tigers or substitute Panthers. After all you want all the players engaging in their best dog imitations and talking about the only way to take out a Tiger.

The British, Canadians and Poles got plenty of practice fighting Tigers however.

The easiest way to mock up Oddballs tank is just to put speakers on the turret, instantly recognisable. And maybe do a headswap to put a fez on one of the crew:)

I paged through it looking for pictures of the 6AD and it definitely is equipped with M4A3s, so M4A3 (76) would be appropriate for Oddball's group.

The M4A3 is certainly appropriate. 6th AD was formed and equipped stateside in 1943/44. It was equipped with mid-production M4A3s.

However, that does not mean that 76mm guns would be appropriate. At least not if you want to show the 6th AD.

The following are excerpts from reports issued by teams that visited units in the field in ETO to survey them on their views of their unit organization and equipment.

Headquarters Twelfth Army Group, Armored Section

14 October 1944
Subject: Visit to Armored Units XII Corps.

…

3. Equipment.

a. The 6th Armored Division has received no 76mm tanks and have no great desire for them…

Headquarters 6th Armored Division

14 December 1944

…

b. M4E6 [i.e., wet stowage M4A3] Tank

1) The 76mm gun is desired. This is based on the fact that future targets in this theater will probably be steel or concrete. …

So the 6th AD did not have any 76mm armed Shermans as of early-October, and began specifically requesting them in mid-December.

That said, Oddball is quite explicit in his comment that their tanks are standard Sherman 76s. And yet looking at them they are clearly post-war upgrades, not wartime-produced Sherman 76s. That's not too surprising, as the U.S. post-war military aid program included a LOT of surplussed Shermans, many of which were surplus Sherman 75s that were up-gunned to the 76mm gun (in the standard 75mm turret). These were generally referred to as M4E4 (not to be confused with the US Army Ordnance M4A2E4, which was a diesel Sherman with torsion bar suspension). Most MilAid M4E4s were on M4A1 or M4A3 chassis. The tanks used in Kelly's Heroes were, IIRC, provided by the Yugoslav Army during filming, and were M4E4s.

So if you want it to BE right, it's an M4A3 75mm mid-war production: M34A1 wide stepped mantlet, applique plates over the ammo stowage on the hull sides, bulged glacis plate for driver/co-driver hatches, and no cupola.

But if you want it to LOOK right, it's a post-war M4E4 upgunned 76mm Sherman, on a late-production M4A3 Sherman base: M34A1 wide stepped mantlet, no applique armor, 47 degree flat glacis plate, and commander's cupola.

That can be created by getting a late production M4A3 and putting a longer barrel on it.

Oh, and THEN add the speaker!

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)