"New Conjectural Team Yankee Vehicle Stats" Topic

Okay, so been doing a little dabbling with the old Challenger 2000 armor stats, and running those up against the values for TY, using their T-72 (T-72A, so I've read) as a baseline. It has a 16 for frontal armor, 8 / 13 for side armor (second number vs. HEAT rounds), and a 2 for top armor, IIRC.

In Challenger 2000, it has a frontal rating of 10C2, and a side rating of 4S2. I've ignored the rear armor ratings, and used 2 generally as the top armor for most tanks in TY (with some exceptions, as you'll see, for the latest tanks). Generally use a 1 as the top TY armor rating for most IFVs and APCs, with a few exceptions.

So, given the above, each Frontal Armor point in Challenger 2000 is worth 1.6 points in Team Yankee, rounded up to the nearest whole number. For the Side Armor – regular, each Challenger 2000 point is worth 2 points in TY, vs. AP rounds. For HEAT Armor values, again, each C2000 point is worth approximately 2 TY Armor Points (2.1667 to be exact).

Since I wasn't sure how TY derives their Frontal Armor values (only one is given, for both AP and HEAT rounds), I've provided two listings below for the frontal armor for you to choose from. The first value – leftmost number (after the vehicle designation), is for the kinetic armor only (AP rounds), while the second, generally higher values in some cases, is for a 50%/50% mix of AP Armor/HEAT Armor values, then dividing that number by two (since I added them together), and then using that final number to compare to our baseline T-72 tank's frontal armor value. From that, you have the numbers shown, for a mixed armor protective value (though Phil from TY says they're using a logarithmic scale for their armor values, so I've not adjusted for that, since I don't know how it works).

Someone mentioned on the TY forum, that the Frontal Armor values in TY are derived strictly from the kinetic armor (vs. AP rounds) values. Not sure if that is true, but could be, which is why I've mentioned it here.

As you'll see, in some cases, the armor value changes are significant. Not sure if the TY folks have access to better data than when C2000 stats were produced, or if they're compressed a bit, e.g. 18 frontal armor for the M1, when C2000 stats says it should be 24 (the latter number also corresponds to at least one reference I found on-line, mentioning 600mm equivalent of frontal armor on the American tank).

Also, in some cases, you'll notice the front/side armor values of the tanks and APCs/IFVs may be more, or less than provided for by TY, Fate, and their Vietnam rules. Originally, I was going to adjust to those norms, but then decided not to, instead, providing you with the pure values below. You can make adjustments as desired, instead, if you so choose.

For example, their T-54/T-55 values are 12/8/2, IIRC. In my stats, they are 10 – 11/6/2, with the frontal values being slightly different, depending upon the model type.

Also, you'll see the M48 values are different too, instead of 12/8/2, they're 13/6/3 for all models.

Perhaps they're using some sort of side angle off armor modifier for that, since their side ratings for the above are about 33% higher than the C2000 stats say they should be.

Also, BMPs, and some other IFVs/APCs have been bumped up a bit in terms of frontal armor, which brings them in line with the M113, which makes sense to me, since supposedly the BMPs have the same, or better frontal armor than the American APC.

I used the "average" Challenger II ratings (pretty much the same as the C2000 ratings for spaced armor, Chobham armor, reactive armor, etc. as a modifier for Armor Effectiveness, where appropriate). For the special Top Armor = T in C2000, I multiplied the armor value by 1.5X x 2 TY Armor points for it, and 2.0X for Active Armor x 2 TY Armor points. These are used to protect the latest tanks from top attack weapons, so as you'll see they get pretty high, quite quickly.

Team Yankee Conjectural Stats – from Challenger 2000 stats, and using the T-72 (T-72A from TY as a baseline)

Not sure the formatting below will remain in place, so the"

1st number (far left) is for the Kinetic Armor Protection Only, for the Front

2nd number is a mix of AP and HEAT Frontal Protection

3rd number is the side armor (vs. AP / vs. HEAT)

4th number is the top armor


-----------AP Value------------ Armor
Vehicles---Only Front---Front---Side----Top
PT-76 3 3 2 1
T-34/85M 8 8 3 2
JS-IIIM 11 11 6 2
Su-100 8 8 3 2
T-10 14 14 8 2
T-10M 16 16 8 2

T-54 TY Rating 12? 12 8 2
T-54 My Rating 10 10 6 2
T-55A & AD 11 11 6 2
T-55AMV 22 22 12 2
T-55AM1/2 27 27 8 / 13 2

T-62 13 13 6 2
T-62M/T-62A 13 13 6 2
T-62M1 25 25 8 / 13 2
T-62MV 54 54 8 / 13 2

T-64 18 18 10 / 15 2
T-64A 19 19 12 / 17 2
T-64B 21 26 10 / 15 6
T-64BV 21 44 18 / 30 12

T-72 16 16 8 / 13 2
T-72A/G 16 16 – 24 8 / 13 2
T-72B 19 19 10 / 17 6
T-72BV 22 33 10 / 26 6
T-72S 22 29 10 / 17 6
T-72B1V 22 55 22 / 39 6

T-80 18 18 8 / 13 2
T-80B 21 26 10 / 26 2
T-80BV 21 50 18 / 50 18
T-80U 22 56 20 / 56 18

ZSU-23/4 1 1 1 1
ZSU-57/2 2 2 1 1
BTR-50 3 3 2 0 or 1
BTR-50PK 3 3 2 1
BTR-60PB 2 2 1 0 or 1

BMP-1, BRM, BTR50, MTLB 3 3 2 1
BMP-2 5 5 2 1
BMD-1 and BMD-2 2 2 2 1

BTR-70 3 3 2 1
BTR-80 3 3 2 1
BTR-80A 5 5 2 1
BRDM & BTR-40 2 2 1 1

M24 75mm 3 3 2 2
M26 90mm 8 8 6 or 8 2
M41 76mm 5 5 2 2

M42 2 2 1 1
M46 90mm 8 8 6 or 8 2
M47 90mm 11 11 8 2

M48 90mm 13 13 6 2
M48A2 90mm 13 13 6 2
M48A3 90mm 13 13 6 2
M48A5 105mm – US and DL 13 13 6 2

M60 13 13 6 2
M60A1 16 16 8 2
M60A1 Rise – USMC 16 32 8 / 26 2
M60A2 18 16 / 18? 8 2
M60A3 18 18 / 16? 10 2

M1 24 24 12 / 30 9
M1 IP 26 29 12 / 39 9
M1A1 27 32 12 / 39 9
M1A2 31 49 14 / 46 16

M551 5 5 2 1

Lynx – Canadian 2 2 1 1
LAV 2 2 2 1
YP-408 2 2 1 1

M113 3 3 2 1
M114 3 3 2 1
M2A1 Bradley 6 7 4 / 3 2
M2A2 Brad.
M2A3 Brad.
M163 2 2 1 1

Chieftain V 19 15 10 / 15 2
Chief.Stillbrew 22 30 12 / 24 2
Challenger I 26 37 12 / 26 12
Challenger II 31 44 14 / 52 20
FV432 3 3 2 1
Warrior 6 6 4 2

Spz Kurz 2 2 1 1
HS30 *top armor 5 5 4 1
Marder 1 8 8 4 / 6 2
Luchs 3 5 2 1

JgPz Rakete 1/2 8 8 4 2
JgPz Kanone 8 8 4 2

Jaguar 1 * 8 9 4 / 7 2
Jaguar 2 * 8 9 4 / 7 2

Leo 1 10 10 6 2
Leo 1A1A1 13 13 6 / 11 2
Leo 1A2 14 14 6 / 11 2
Leo 1A3, 1A4 14 14 6 / 11 2
Leo 1A5 16 16 8 / 13 2

Leo 2 22 30 10 / 26 2
Leo 2A4 29 42 14 / 26 16
Leo 2A5
Leo 2A6
Gepard 3 3 2 1
Roland Marder 2 2 1 1
TPZ-1 5 5 2 1 or 2

S-Tank 16 16 8 2
S-Tank 103B 16 16 8 / 13 2
S-Tank 103C 18 18 8 / 16 2
PBV-302 3 3 2 / 3 1
PBV-302 late 3 4 2 / 3 1

AMX-30 10 10 4 2

Would love to see some Tank Gun and ATGW values to go with the above, if someone wants to take a look at those, and share them with us, since I'm going to be a bit busy for the next week, or two, and won't be able to look at them.

We'll need some hot rounds to get through the latest in high-tech armor.

Would also love to see conjectural stats for the Leo 2A5, and 2A6, and the T90, since those aren't in the C2000 stats book.

Didn't have a chance to look a the post-Cold War Brads, or the Warrior yet, so will do that when time permits.

For the gunnery stats, I think a lot of those can be derived from the existing TY, Fate, or Vietnam stats already available, as well as from the WWII rules.

Would love to see conjecture on the T-10's and T-10M's, as well as the JS-III's tank armor pen. and range values.

Feel free to comment on any of the above, if desired, or you think some stuff needs to be changed.

Enjoy!

Ah, it looked so nice before posting. Everything in neat little rows.

Oh, well.

Where you see # / # that's the two side armor ratings – 1st vs. AP rounds, and second vs. HEAT.

There may be two numbers for the last value as well – Top Armor, usually listed as 0 or 1, for open-topped/closed topped variants.

Hope that helps clarify things.

Finally, the * for the Jaguars means their frontal armor values vs. AP rounds are higher than listed in the C2000 book, but since they're based on the Kanone hulls, and I doubt they removed the metal armor from the front, before adding the applique armor over that, I've gone with the higher armor rating for them vs. kinetic rounds.

Hmmm, just noticed to Top Armor value for the M1A2 was a bit low, so changed it to the correct 16, from 9.

The tanks with T, or A armor, as listed in Challenger 2000, have much stronger armor than normal, to protect against top-attack weapons, like ATGMs, and precision artillery rounds.

Not sure if these values are correct, or over-stated by 100%, so take them with a grain of salt.

I'm using the generic "side armor" value of 2 TY Armor Points for each 1 point of Armor listed in Challenger 2000, for the higher values, which may, or may not be correct.

I'll leave it to you to decide, at least until I have a chance to look at some of the top-attack weapons values in Challenger 2000.

Note that the Challenger rules used LOS armour thicknesses measured in inches of RHA steel as the armour rating (and then tweaked it a bit for composite etc armour).

FOW derates the slope factor so there won't be an entirely linear relationship between the two ratings systems where that is a factor. This will be especially apparent on vehicles like the S-Tank that relied to extremely sloped armour.

Also as per the other thread TY has a log scale for armour so high armour values derived from Challenger will be less in TY.

Note – for those that don't want to read all the details on the above stats, and how they're derived, to make Main Battle Tanks compatible with TY from the above listing, you need to do the following:

1. use the plain, kinetic armor value rating for the front armor, since apparently that's what the TY folks did – highest value furthest to the left, after the model name/number of the vehicle(s) (and not the second one, which may be identical, or much higher in some cases – that value is for a mix of kinetic and HEAT armor protection);

2. adjust the side armor values of 6 (like for the T-54/T-55, T-62, M48, etc.) to 8. Adjust side armor values of 8 to 10 (like for the T-62, and M60s).

3. the very latest MBTs probably should have a top armor rating of at least three, e.g. Leopard II, M-1, T-80, etc..

I hope that helps.

Feel free to tweak the values, as desired, to fit your understanding of relative armor numbers in comparison with the weaponry used in the game.

Also, in general, each armor point seems to be equivalent to about 25mm, so that'll help, if you want to come up with stats for weaponry not currently included in the game, but know the rough armor penetration values for them. Easy to find for many on-line, via a search, and info published on Wikipedia, etc..

The following two sites have data on armor levels for modern tanks. Note that actual values are classified and not easy to come by. The CD modern values were created with a lot of effort by a team of researchers.
link
link
The values from the above two sites appear to be fairly consistent with each other. It would appear that the challenger rules give a very high rating to reactive armor based on the second number listed for t72b1v , t80bv and t80u.