"1805-1807 Campaigns; Should Anyone Win?" Topic

I have fought 4 1805 and 2 1807 Campaigns. The French have won 3 times and Allies once with 2 draws. In all 6 campaigns, I used historical TOs, 1 to 10 figure scales employing about 35,000 figures. The games were great fun, but a couple of people/gamers have commented that only the French should have been able to win! I am curious what other gamers think about campaigning. In the 1805 campaigns the Austrians were required to invade Bavaria, but after that could maneuver as they saw fit. The Russians had to advance in 3 separate armies with a random time table in order to link up with Austrians. In 1807, once again the Russians had separate armies and timetables and were allowed to maneuver as they saw fit.

The big question: Given the original historical results, genius of Napoleon, French leadership and troop quality is it reasonable for the Allies to have a good chance to win? Or should campaigns be "adjusted" in such a way that Allies have very little chance?

It is reasonable for the Allies to have a chance. The French players should have to show the genius of Napoleon to achieve the results – probably relatively greater since many gamers are unlikely (given hindsight!) to replicate the failures of Hohenloe, Mack, Austerlitz and Benningsen. You can find instances in all of the "glory years" campaigns where the Allies fought just as hard and well as the French.

One way of thinking about it might be compare it to baseball (I'm assuming you are American!). The French team batting average (tactical skills and troop quality) is .275 compared to an Allied .260 and Napoleon is the Cy Young pitcher and the league MVP: those are really big advantages, but it doesn't mean that that team is going to go 162-0…

There is a lot of friction in war, a lot happens by chance and neither side is paid to come second.

Its all about the OODA loop – the French decision cycle ran a whole step faster than the allies, even when they eventually decided to operate on the same calendar! Maybe give the French two moves for every Allied one…

"1805-1807 Campaigns; Should Anyone Win?"

Depends what you mean by "winning".

Agreed. The French can definitely lose. For one thing, hindsight makes it impossible to duplicate the campaign as it occurred historically. Secondly, what fun is playing a game if you cannot win?

The French do have some advantages, like unity of command, better communication, and waaay better troops. Many were Revolutionary veterans, just coming off a great re-org and extensive training program. Many wargamers give French troops short shrift for quality, but at this point in history they should be very highly ranked.

I've just been reading "Napoleons Conquest of Prussia" by Petre. Not only is it interesting to read because of its publication on the eve of WWI, but the prose is actually fairly approachable. He makes it clear, though Napoleon's Corp deployment was masterful, a decisive response from the Prussians could easily have changed the outcome of either Jena or Auerstadt. Napoleon was completely unaware that he was not fighting the main Prussian army at Jena, and it was only the piecemeal commitment of troops by the Prussians at both Jena and Auerstadt, that kept the French from some very rude surprises.

These are all great responses and I thank "all". In our campaigns both sides had historical objectives that must be
met; In 1805 the Austrians must try to "knock out" the Bavarians and capture parts of Italy. The Russians are divided up into 3 armies all arriving at different times on different roads. The French must protect Italy and Bavaria, but the "how" they accomplish that is up to Napoleon. In 1807 the Russians arrive in different armies and times, but have a great deal of latitude in overall strategy. Napoleon must try to bring the Russians to a decisive battle, before his army is "reduced" in the snows of Poland. In both campaigns the "total" French forces are outnumbered.

IMHO the 1805-1807 campaigns are "great" for gaming… the French generals and command at their peak, large French cavalry forces, and peak of infantry quality! On the Allies
you have Russians in mitres and shakos and the Austrians in helmets…..beautiful figures.."all"

I have just refought Austerlitz – admittedly on far too small a table and Davout was late but the French lost … badly. The allies took a fair pounding but old Boney would have had to slink back across the Rhine with is tail between his legs.

Of course the Allies could win, refuse a fight at Austerlitz for a week wait for concentration of forces and wait till Prussian forces will materialize as well, then it is big problem for the French wargamer to win – Napoleon had no plan B