"Israel Launches Air-Strikes Against Hezbollah ..." Topic

…Positions in Syria.

"According to unconfirmed reports, eight fighters, five Syrian soldiers die in four IAF raids Monday; ‘dozens' said injured

Unconfirmed Syrian media reports said Tuesday that Israel carried out some four airstrikes on Syrian regime and Hezbollah positions in the area of Syria's Qalamoun mountains on Monday night.

A report by Al-Souria Net, a pro-opposition outlet, said eight Hezbollah fighters and five Syrian soldiers were killed in the raids, which hit the border region between Lebanon and Syria.

"After several hours of reconnaissance flights above the area, Israeli planes suddenly launched two raids on a joint Assad forces and Hezbollah position," Al-Souria Net reported. "This was immediately followed by a third raid.. The Israeli planes resumed their attack with a fourth air raid after several minutes, targeting a Hezbollah position in western Qalamoun."

The report said there were "dozens" injured in the airstrikes, four of them critically. The wounded were transferred to local hospitals for treatment…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Can someone explain how bombing border outposts between two countries, when Israel is neither of those countries, in the process killing uniformed personnel of a national military you are not at war with, is in any way legal?

The Turks just shot down a jet for violating their airspace for ~17 seconds…

Noble713:
It's the forever war paradigm. If you're powerful enough you can act with impunity and ignore sovereignty! Rampant and wanton militarism is the new black and is all the rage right now. The world is one screwed up place these days as leadership and militaries are out of control.
Rod Robertson.

The sooner the Russians start shooting IAF planes down when they commit these crimes, the better.

Netanyahu needs taking down a peg or two before he does something really stupid.

Israel has the right to bomb them with all the attacks going on in Israel right now. We would be screaming for bombings if ISIS was attacking us and hiding in Mexico.

The sooner the Russians start shooting IAF planes down when they commit these crimes, the better.

The IDF going after Hezbollah, one of their traditional enemies is not a war crime. And besides Bibi and Putin had a sit down. I doubt very much the Russians will shot at the IAF.

[Stu … your anti-Israeli slip is showing …]

You only see it as different because it's Jews doing it.

Israel has the right to bomb them with all the attacks going on in Israel right now

See stu … I'm not the only one that understands your bias …

Hezbollah is ensconced in Syria, in effect acting as a country within a country. Syria is unwilling and/or unable to control them (probably a combination of the two). Hezbollah is engaged in a war against Israel.

I think you are confusing Lebanon and Syria. Hezbollah is conducting extensive combat operations in Syria; their power base is in Lebanon.

Israel therefore attacks Hezbollah where it is, to degrade their capability to wage war against Israel.

Is Israel's security situation so tenuous that a few dozen grunts at a border outpost half a country away are a capability that needs to be degraded? Not to mention beyond short-sided to undermine the two ground forces standing in the way of an ISIS expansion westward…ISIS certainly are no fans of Israel either, why help clear a path for them to your own doorstep?

It's no different than what France is now doing against ISIS.

France is delivering high explosives against an enemy. Israel is delivering high explosives against an enemy……Hezbollah is delivering high explosives against an enemy….they just can't afford fixed-wing fast jets, so they use rockets. It's all kosher, right? (pun intended)

Or, since Turkey is tacitly supporting ISIS, and ISIS includes Chechen fighters, who are at war with Russia, and they infiltrate Syria largely THROUGH Turkey….by your logic Russia would be justified in dropping bombs on Turkey, to kill Chechens. And if they happen to catch Turkish soldiers in the blast…"Oh well"?

You only see it as different because it's Jews doing it.

I'm quick to call out hypocrisy from numerous factions, its just the US and Israel tend to accumulate the bulk of the offenses. Since TMP's Membership is lacking in Chinese, Saudis, and Iranians (not a lot of miniature wargaming going on in those countries), and the Russian contingent is small…that further narrows down the bubbles available to burst to basically the mild-neoCons and the Zionists.

It's not a "crime" for a country to protect itself from an armed force in a neighboring country waging war against it via terrorism.

Re: "Not a Crime"…apparently international law disagrees:
( link )

"To put an even finer point on it, U.S. military action in Syria is actually prohibited by the United Nations Charter. There are only two circumstances in which the U.N. Charter permits the use of military force by one nation against another: a case of self-defense, or when authorized by the Security Council "to maintain or restore international peace and security." Russia has already said it does not support action against Syria, so its veto (or that of China) in the Security Council would stop that alternative cold."

So dropping bombs in Syria…which kill Syrians, who are not actively attacking you…is, in fact, a violation of international law. Here's another article on the subject ( link ), again just replace "United States" with "Israel" and it largely reads the same.

Re: "terrorism". Hezbollah in the past 15 years has fought a pretty conventional total war as far as "non-state actors" go. Cross-border raids in 2000 and 2006 were attacks against military personnel. If rocket attacks (just a delivery mechanism for indirect-fire high explosive ordnance) against population centers are considered terrorism, then, historically, the USAF, Royal AF, and Russian AF would be the three biggest terrorist organizations of all. On a side note, Wiki claims Hezbollah condemned the 9/11 World Trade Center attack (civilian target), but not the Pentagon attack (military target).

It's the forever war paradigm. If you're powerful enough you can act with impunity and ignore sovereignty! Rampant and wanton militarism is the new black and is all the rage right now. The world is one screwed up place these days as leadership and militaries are out of control.

Rod is correct, of course. I just like to see who comes out of the woodwork to defend "their" side as the "morally right" faction. So I start with the Internet forum equivalent of "reconnaissance by fire". ^_^

Kenneth – for a start Hezbollah are operating in Syria at the request of the Syrian government…

So the first part of your analysis is fatally flawed.

Furthermore they ARE fighting ISIS, and have taken heavy casualties in so doing. Once again Israel strikes at the enemies of ISIS, one wonders why.

I never said it was a war crime. Simply a dumb thing to do. Bombing another nation in this manner is illegal under international law – but then Israel breaks such laws daily…

Netanyahu is a bigot, and intriguingly a Holocaust denier – having just blamed the Holocaust on the Arabs…

I think he needs his wings clipping before he does something very, very stupid. The Russians telling him to keep to his side of the fence would do that.

After all, I've merely asked for the Israeli air-force to be treated in exactly the same way the Russians have been by the Turks.

This comes as little surprise since Israel sees Hezbollah, Iran and Syria as greater evils compared to Daesh.

They are all evil so does it really matter which one gets bombed? Israel has the right to defend itself. Same thing for France, Britain, Russia and the US. Honestly, Bangorstu it appears you have a personnel distaste for Israel.

I think that is the bottom line …

"I think you are confusing Lebanon and Syria. Hezbollah is conducting extensive combat operations in Syria; their power base is in Lebanon.'

No, they are heavily ensconced in Syria as well.

"So dropping bombs in Syria…which kill Syrians, who are not actively attacking you…is, in fact, a violation of international law.'

"Hezbollah in the past 15 years has fought a pretty conventional total war as far as "non-state actors" go. Cross-border raids in 2000 and 2006 were attacks against military personnel.'

That's the equivalent of saying a bank robber didn't do THAT much wrong because he wrote his robbery note on a deposit slip.
We are not attacking the Syrian military, we are attacking a non-state actor, e.g. ISIS. Legally they can be executed on sight.

"for a start Hezbollah are operating in Syria at the request of the Syrian government…'

Therefore Syria is aiding, abetting, and harboring a terrorist organization making all the Syrian military and Hezbollah targets in Syria legit targets for Israel.

"Furthermore they ARE fighting ISIS, and have taken heavy casualties in so doing. Once again Israel strikes at the enemies of ISIS, one wonders why."

The same reason we supported the Iranians and the Iraqis, 9through intel on both sides) during 1980-88. When two people who hate you are fighting, let them…

"Netanyahu is a bigot, and intriguingly a Holocaust denier"

Really, he denies the Holocaust happened? That's an odd position for an Israeli PM.

Dn Jackson – so I assume you'd have supported British airstrikes against Boston twenty years ago?

Given they attack military targets, it is actually an interesting point as to whether Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation.

They do, it is true, fire missiles into civilian areas, but then so does Israel.

As I said, we need to see a burning Israeli F15 on TV just to remind them of the limitations of their power.

Otherwise they'll do something really foolish and they'll drag the US into a conflict easily avoided.

As it is, the Russians are, after the recent events, installing some 1st rate AAA at Latakia which will (if it works as advertised) be easily capable of keeping the IAF honest.

I doubt the Israelis will be bombing this delivery as they have all the others.

After all, I've merely asked for the Israeli air-force to be treated in exactly the same way the Russians have been by the Turks.

And yet, the Russians, and the Assad government, say and do *nothing* about this latest incident, much like the several previous incidents. They seem to be deliberately turning a blind eye. Why, oh why, Stu, do they ignore your reasonable requests and good advice? Really. Why do you think?

"Netanyahu is a bigot, and intriguingly a Holocaust denier"

Really, he denies the Holocaust happened? That's an odd position for an Israeli PM.

Of course, Binny pointing out Haj Amin al-Husseini's role in the Holocaust is not denying the Holocaust. Stu is indulging in turnspeak, asserting the opposite of reality to shock his opponents. He used to annoy me with that tactic, but I've learned to expect it from him.

Stu,

The UK and EU consider the military arm of Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

It's fair game to attack them.

Not a crime.

Dn Jackson – so I assume you'd have supported British airstrikes against Boston twenty years ago?

Sure, if they could make it thru US CAP and ADA. But you are correct stu, there are a lot Irish in the USA. Albeit only a few supported the IRA. But as of today, there are 6.5 million Irish in Ireland and 30 million in the USA. So I guess we can spin it that all terrorists in the IRA are Irish. But not all Irish are terrorists.

Given they attack military targets, it is actually an interesting point as to whether Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation.

Oh Hezbollah is a terrorists organization. If the average islamist can refer back to the Crusades. Calling the West, Crusaders, infidels, etc., Daesh has even referred to the West as "Rome" in recent videos.
So I and others will call Hezbollah terrorists. As in '83 their founders with Persian and Syrian support, killed all those US Marines, Sailors, Soldiers and French Paras in Lebanon. With their signature bomb in a truck tactic. Yes, they are terrorists.

Your need to lash out at anything related to Israel further demonstrates your bias.

Of course, Binny pointing out Haj Amin al-Husseini's role in the Holocaust is not denying the Holocaust.

When Netanyahu is taken to task on Holocaust history by the Chancellor of Germany, I think I can stand by my statement.

Binyamin basically said the Holocaust was dreamt up by Arabs, despite the meeting in quesiton occuring after Wandensee.

Given they attack military targets, it is actually an interesting point as to whether Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation.

Does that mean that MAJ Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter(and soldier) is not a terrorist since he targeted military personnel?

The war with the Hezzies isn't over.

There's just a brief lull in the fighting with them.

Hezbollah has called for the destruction of Israel and has waged a war with them for several decades. Them and the PLA have tried to destroy Israel. That said, Israel has every right to defend themselves. When the terrorists attacked the world trade center we did not turn our cheek to them. We pounced on Afghanistan and destroyed terrorist camps. Why should we not allow other countries to defend themselves as well.

I do not remember the UN condemning us for our attacks. Nor will I condemn Israel. As a matter of fact that is less terrorists that can attack this country and for that I clap my hands.

Plenty of nations want to get rid of Israel, in theory at least, many of them US allies…

Israel does have a right to defend itself.

But by bombing Hezbollah personnel fighting ISIS they are not doing that… .they are aiding ISIS.

Had they been bombing SSM site sin Lebanon I'd be congratulating them on a job well done.

So, do you want to get rid of ISIS or not? If so, why are you condoning the bombing of one of the few forces capable of going toe to toe weith them?

I'm guessing that Israel is acting entirely in the interests of its national security. Even if the target seems a little odd perhaps. Hezbollah probably remain the clearest threat as far as Israel is concerned. Though the proxy war, and general meat grinder, in Syria which has sucked in Hezbollah courtesy of its Iranian backers it seems, must be putting smiles on the faces of Israel's strategic planners. They're probably happy to leave ISIS alone until (a) that proxy's backers get bitten on the backside, (b) ISIS starts taking pot shots at Israel or Israeli interests or (c) both sets of proxies are reduced to exhausted remnants. Though I they will probably less happy if the balloon goes up completely and they end up with an Islamic replay of the 30-years on their doorstep. Also they're probably enjoying the fact that while all this is going on, with the 'west' is busily simultaneously handwringing over the swamp its found itself standing in and throwing air ordnance around, they're not being given gip about Palestine.

But by bombing Hezbollah personnel fighting ISIS they are not doing that… .they are aiding ISIS.

Aiding Syrian rebels would put Israel perfectly in-line with NATO policy under US leadership. If that's what they're doing. Just sayin'.

Had they been bombing SSM site sin Lebanon I'd be congratulating them on a job well done.

That'll be the day, when Israel does anything to please you.

On a somewhat related note, I see in the news that AQ had a suicide bomber target and take out a number of ISIS leadership personnel in the last few days, so that is an interesting turn of events.

I need a daily scorecard to keep track of who is fighting whom in the region, and how they're doing.

"Aiding Syrian rebels would put Israel perfectly in-line with NATO policy under US leadership. If that's what they're doing. Just sayin'."

True that and we know who Joe Biden said the Syrian rebels are AQ and ISIS. I don't believe the VP is badly informed.

Not a smart strategy in my book.

I suspect that the targets of this airstrike were plotting something against Israel. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense for the Israelis to attack that position. (And every Israeli attack has followed a logical thought process so far)

I will remind you that the Egyptians and the Israelis have come to a hot pursuit agreement in the Sinai. While I don't think anyone outside the two has all the details of the agreement, it apparently says that Israel will not consider a border incursion by Egyptian troops pursuing terrorists an act of war, and vice versa. I think it may even include radio frequencies and arrangements for the intruded nation's troops to play blocking force. I certainly would have included such terms if I was negotiating the agreement.

I suspect that the discussion with the Russians came up with a similar agreement.

There is no evidence for that and currently Hezbollah have their hands full with ISIS. Its more likely Israel thinks keeping the Syrian War going is in its interest and so acted to take the pressure off ISIS. Previously Israel has given medical treatment to ISIS wounded so its not suprising.

Not wise though.

"Furthermore they ARE fighting ISIS, and have taken heavy casualties in so doing. Once again Israel strikes at the enemies of ISIS, one wonders why."

And

"Netanyahu is a bigot, and intriguingly a Holocaust denier – having just blamed the Holocaust on the Arabs…"

Is Chortle back, with a new Nom de Plume?

"As I said, we need to see a burning Israeli F15 on TV just to remind them of the limitations of their power."
How is this not cheerleading?

"Otherwise they'll do something really foolish and they'll drag the US into a conflict easily avoided."
Ohh, for their own good, of course.

You're always a treat.

V/R,
Jack

I'd disagree with placing Israel on the 'good guys' list.

Good guys adhere to the Geneva Conventions and don't do things like using White Phosphorous against schools, illegally occupy land, use collective punishment etc. etc.

They're better than Hamas, but that doesn't make them angels.

I'll note my problems are with the Netanyahu government rather than the Israeli system a sa whole. It's not a perfect democracy – more like an apartheid state than anything – but the ebst there is in that neighbourhood.

That doesn't excuse their crimes, nor does it mean I have to understand why they seem to be supporting ISIS.

Compared to many in the region the IDF are wearing white hats. But may be faded a bit to a pale desert tan … And unfortunately many in the region ignore the GCs … No easy answers in this region … ever …

Let's say a mid to dark grey….

But yes, no easy answers.

50 shades … at least …

There is no evidence for that and currently Hezbollah have their hands full with ISIS.

NO evidence that Hezbollah has their hands full with DAESH, either.

Its more likely Israel thinks keeping the Syrian War going is in its interest and so acted to take the pressure off ISIS.

A civil war on your border is in your interest? remind me to never let you into a position of government.

Previously Israel has given medical treatment to ISIS wounded so its not suprising.

In most places, giving medical aid to the wounded, regardless of affiliation, is considered a requirement of the Geneva Conventions…

"NO evidence that Hezbollah has their hands full with DAESH, either."

Hezbollah have a significamt amount of their military resources fighting ISIS I don't think any serious analyst would deny that.

Actually Israel likes to promote civil wars amongst its neighbours have you forgotten Lebanon or indeed the Paletstinian territories when Israel sponsored Hamas against Fatah both are vey well documented. Syria would conform with that pattern of behaviour.

As to treating ISIS fighters and enabling them to return to action I don't think a veneration of the Geneva Convention supplied the motivation.

Israel has a history of GC violations so yeah, I doubt that was the motivation.

Hezbollah have a significamt amount of their military resources fighting ISIS I don't think any serious analyst would deny that.

Actually Israel likes to promote civil wars amongst its neighbours have you forgotten Lebanon or indeed the Paletstinian territories when Israel sponsored Hamas against Fatah both are vey well documented. Syria would conform with that pattern of behaviour.

All true … Realpolitik at it's best …

Israel has a history of GC violations

Even if true … It is still behind the list of all the Arab violations, in the neighborhood, it appears to me …

Depends on which Arabs you're talking about…

Jordanians and Lebanese stick to it. Hamas, not so much.

A civil war on your border is in your interest? remind me to never let you into a position of government

"Only the heir to the thrown of the kindom of idiots…." YouTube link

John T

Depends on which Arabs you're talking about…

Jordanians and Lebanese stick to it. Hamas, not so much.

As always … many factions/players … many shades of grey, etc. …

Here are some of Stu's Hezbollah hero's attacking military targets in Syria:

YouTube link

LOL !!!!!

"Israel has a history of GC violations…".

Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah, and their supporters have a far greater tendency to commit GC violations, and to lie and exaggerate, in order to push their agendas.

As we've seen with the Egyptians and Jordanians for quite some time, it is possible to live alongside, and even coexist with Israel.

In fact, Israel and Egypt are now fighting the same jihadis in the Sinai, and border areas, cooperatively.

Sigwald – want me to dig up some videos of what life is like in Gaza?

Don't think Hezbollah have yet used WP against a school…

I never said Hezbollah were angels, just that there's not much to choose between either side in that conflict given the abuses on both sides.

BTW note that Arab villages in Israel don't get bomb shelters provided by the government (according to the Independent).

hence during the last Hezbollah bombardment, a small girl was killed in an Arab village as she had nowhere to escape the rockets.

Whereas now I guess that missile would have bend dealt with by the anti-missile defences, it does show a certain attitude towards relative value of life.

mind you, not all Arab villages have been given running water or sewage either…

Also, some may not realize, about 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs …

And it's one of the better parts of the world for an Arab to live…

But they're second class citizens, and widely discriminated against.

And they don't get beheaded, nailed to a cross, burned in a cage, sold into slavery, etc. … Just say'n …