"Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet" Topic

Easier to find than the crap about yoga…

link

RMD, you are responsible for this spilt tea….

Yeah, the yoga thing was meant as a joke, it just happened to pop up elsewhere

But I can see a few fundamental differences there….

Lifenews is even less reliable than Daily Mail…however they still take F-16 version as main ;)

Russian post vodka yoga:
link

Barin,

Say it ain't so! :D

Love it…some of my questions answered:

Turkey and the rebels it backs northern Syria had the right to defend themselves against Russian airstrikes, State Department spokesman told reporters. The rebels reportedly killed one Russian pilot who ejected from the jet hit by a Turkish missile.
During the regular press briefing, Mark Toner said the Syrian government did not have such a right, though.

When asked by RT's Gayane Chichakyan if the State Department considered the rebels who reportedly killed the Russian pilots "moderates," Toner replied:

"We've seen conflicting reports. One pilot may not have been killed. If these ‘Turkomen' were actually being attacked by Russian strikes, they have every right to defend themselves."

AP's diplomatic correspondent Matt Lee asked a follow up question.

"Doesn't that apply to everyone, not just rebels backed by West? Including the Assad regime?"

What the Assad regime was doing "is not self-defense," Toner countered, arguing that the government in Damascus responded to "peaceful protests with four years of terror."

When other reporters questioned his description of the Syrian conflict as a "peaceful protest," Toner brushed them off by saying that "everyone in this room knows what happened."

Ah as always it depends whose side your Rebels are on :-)

Per my Laws of Land warefare class in the USMC the difference is that a paratrooper is deployed via parachute, while for a pilot it is a survival mechanism.

That is what I believed I was taught also, when I was in the ARMY. But as I said earlier, most in the region don't follow any GCs. Or much of humanitie's, for that matter …

From what CNN reported, one of the pilots was killed in the air. And a Russian Marine in one of their choppers they sent in on a CSAR mission. To try to recover their pilots.

Don't know if Turkmen are actually ethic Turks but I believe so. But they are allied with the Turks somehow regardless. And not with Assad of course.

As I said, the Turks told the Russians not to mess with the Turkmen. But as always Mr. Putin likes to push the limits. And he likes to send his pilots to buzz US/NATO aircraft and ships. Meander along international borders, etc. … Sometimes your luck runs out and someone calls your bluff.
And you roll a 1 …

I hope they get their pilots back … As I said, many of the locals don't follow the GC. And have a predilection for not treating captives very well.

Or they'll fly with air cover, and dare the Turks to fire on them then…

Doubt that.

Russia overstepped its bounds, Turkey slapped them and Putin will blink. He won't admit any fault, but will let this die down. He can't afford (literally) to get into another war.

Many know that Russia has been aggressively probing Turkish borders as well as many other NATO countries, but most don't know that Turkey already shot down a Russian drone on October 16th. Russia didn't get the message that time.

Air cover? Perhaps you aren't aware of how well-armed the Turks are and how big their air force is? The USA has provided Turkey well with a huge fleet of upgraded F-16s so they stay in NATO.

What about these gentle innocent turkmen working with villain isis?
Biz as usual?
As the Russians said (??) with caucasian " brothers" islamists.
I think islamists are like the plague there is no moderate ones.

For all the cold war was any Russian plane destroyed in Europe?
Or Nato ( except U2 ) ?

As D Manley said loads of incursions, as found 100(0) or. From Turks in Grece… So sometimes shooting others is good sometimes its bad.
I am confused.

Or so the Turks can defend their brothers IN Syria, is that what the Americans said? then the Russians can "defend" theirs in Ukraine etc.
going far this one.
We have top level diplomacy talk with long memory here.

So in effect the big Turks tell us not to attack all or part of the scumbags and well… We bend over ( they like it very much over there) etc.
Our recent deads, past ones, and future ones, in buses, trains, cinemas, stadiums, planes etc. are proud of their countries.
Biz as usual.

No one said the Turkmen were angels. And most likely they can be as brutal as many of the other factions in the region. Not to mention the Turks getting bootlegged oil from Daesh, which appears to be more likely everyday.

I hate to say I have to concur with cw's assessment. Putin will have to back off in this instance. He overplayed his hand and knows it. I'm no fan of the Turks but Russia simply doesn't have a hand to challenge the Turks with and force the issue. It's time to fold and pick their battles more wisely.

They're now down to 11 SU-24's. Their 12 SU-25's lack the range, speed and ordnance capacity of the Fencers. Their pitiful number of fighters cannot hope to cope with the Turkish Air Force and ADA systems.

Ironically Turkey has the decisive "home field" advantage Russia enjoyed in eastern Ukraine. We all know what karma can be.

Let's see about Turkish "home field advantage" when Russians will start suplying Kurds with AA capability.

Turkish actions were stupid and not called for in today's political situation. Before Paris it would be more exceptable to European opinion.

If the Turks have backing from the United States, then this was not a stupid move for them. Could be a stupid move for us. I don't see how our increasingly obvious alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood can possibly turn out well. For us.

Lifenews: The gift that keeps on giving… From the team that brought you 'A Ukrainian Su-25 shot down MH-70', here's their version. The map is comedy gold:

lifenews.ru/news/171620

I would personally shed no tears if Russian fighter-bombers down one or more THK aircraft in self-defense. It is blindingly obvious where the Turkish government's sympathies lie.

Yeah, that'd be the ticket. You'd cheer Russia shooting down civilian Turkish airplanes, which would only be flying in Turkish airspace.

Some interesting points in this ZeroHedge article: ( link )

The Turks claim the Russian jets were in their airspace for 17 seconds….but to cross 1.15 miles in 17 seconds the Su-24s would be flying at an abnormally low speed. Also, it states that the F-16s fired while the target was in Turkish airspace…that gives a VERY small window to achieve a target lock and engage….unless the Turks were locked on and ready to fire before the Su-24 even crossed the border. A pretty textbook example of an itchy trigger finger….

Latakia is ~50km from where this incident occurred. S-400's there would be in range, flight time of a missile at Mach 6 ~ 25 seconds. If the Moskva cruiser hangs out offshore of Surekli it's about 30km range, S-300 flight time of ~15 seconds. I'd also send a pair of Beriev A-50 AEW birds to Latakia immediately. Just have them loiter over the airbase since they have a 150km detection range vs fighter-sized targets.

More interesting stuff…I guess it will be days before it will be confirmed by facts:

<<Russian jet hit inside Syria after incursion into Turkey: U.S. official>>

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I would not be too surprised if there wasn't any incursion at all.

Frankly from a country that is violating everyday Syrian and Greek airspace, that invaded Cyprus, a country that sung "Allahu Akbar" during the minute of silence for the French victims during the Greek/Turkey game youtube.com/watch?v=pqip0u0oL5o what do you expect?

Russian announced that they are going to deploy S400 system in Latakia. With 400km range, it will effectively cover a big part of Turkey airspace.

Thankfully one Russian pilot/airman survived the incident and was rescued alive by the Syrian armed forces according to unconfirmed news reports. The two deaths which did occur are tragic. Turkey may have had the right to defend her airspace but over reacted and showed it was trigger-happy in my opinion. It seems Turkey was itching to send a message to the world, perhaps in response to the destruction of the 116 oil tanker trucks by anti-ISIL forces near the Turkish frontier. Russia too is guilty of foolishly pushing its luck along the Turkish frontier. But the Turkomen who are alleged to have shot and killed the other aircrew/pilot while parachuting from the downed jet did a despicable thing and will no doubt come in for a lot of Russian attention in the future. Also the shooting of the TOW at the landed Russian rescue helicopter was a pretty nasty business. I wonder why the Russians didn't have attack helicopters flying overwatch for the pair of rescue choppers? Finally, it is interesting that the Russian marine killed by the TOW attack was a "contract" soldier, whatever that means in Russian terms.
Hopefully, all sides can calm down and de-escalate this mess to prevent further tragedy. Hopefully.
Rod Robertson.

Greatpatton, you are right.
Frightened people, knee jerking become blind and deaf as suits them.

Russian ambassador in Syria confirmed that SU 2d pilot was saved.
Also some interesting stuff from "undisclosed source" that during NATO eemergency meeting Turkey wasn't able to provide any data that SU was shot in Turkish airspace. Figures, see my previous post.
Some of the NATO members were really sceptical on Turkish interpretation of accident (I guess Greece was among them for sure ;)))
Turkey was able to prove that they have issued the warning two times, but the source says that it was a very high possibility that these warnings were not heard.

I wonder if they were in Turkish or Arab, as according to Erdogan they thought it was Syrian plane ;)

Stoltenberg speech that NATO accepts and approves Turkish version and actions was his own opinion.

If not for the deaths of 2 people it would be laughable.

JcFrog – the Turkmen aren't allied to ISIS, they have fought them in the past….

What Putin is trying to do is to wipe out what remains of the moderate opposition to make the civil war a simple, two sided affair.

Then we all have to decide which side to back…

The Turkmen are ethnically Turkish Syrians. I can't see what they've done to deserve the term 'terrorists' aside from dislike Assad…. it's not like they've recently;y bombed a Russian airliner…

..but oddly Putin is leaving the people who did alone.

For the record, no I don't think the Turks have any more rights to protect the Turkmen than the Russians do their ethnic cousins in Ukraine.

Though the big difference is the Turkmen, unlike the Russians, are actually in real, and not entirely manufactured, trouble.

As always in civil war, situation with these Syrian Turkmen is complicated.

<< Since then, they've gotten deeply involved in the civil war, receiving significant amounts of military aid from Ankara. Their location has brought them into conflict with the Assad regime, ISIS, and even the Western-backed Kurdish rebels (whom Turkey sees as a threat given its longstanding struggle with its own Kurdish population). Today, the Syrian Turkmen Brigades — the dominant Turkmen military faction — boast as many as 10,000 fighters, per the BBC, though the real number could be much lower.>>

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And mind you, deaths in Eastern Ukraine are as real as in Syria.

"Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet"

Fortunately, it's almost Thanksgiving, so Obama can pardon it.

Think he already did ;)

17 seconds…. trigger happy Turks. Well done for making a big mess and even bigger mess.

Zardoz +1

John T

one Russian pilot/airman survived the incident and was rescued alive by the Syrian armed forces

Or Russian Special Forces.

"A Russian pilot who went missing after his jet was shot down by Turkey while taking part in air strikes over Syria was rescued in a 12-hour operation involving special forces, Russia says. The pilot is "alive and well" at a Russian air base in Syria, it says."

Though the big difference is the Turkmen, unlike the Russians, are actually in real, and not entirely manufactured, trouble.

Indeed

…deaths in Eastern Ukraine are as real as in Syria

Yes, they are, but…

"Syrian Turkmen are Syrian citizens of Turkic heritage and identity"

So, equivalent to Russians in Ukraine who are ethnically Russian but actually Ukrainian citizens (unlike many of the others fighting there, who are acknowledged to by citizens of Russia, and various other nations).

"Under the Assad regimes in Syria, the Turkmen were banned from publishing or writing in Turkish. The government did not recognise them or other ethnic groups as minorities, preferring to stress the unity of the Arab nation."

Not sure that Ukraine actually banned anyone from publishing or writing in Russian, and Ukraine does recognise ethnic minorities (the whole Russian language thing was a real excuse, as it only related to the official language in use in official government documents), so not really quite the same circumstances. Not seen Turkish troops vacationing in Syria either…?

Trigger happy Turks

Does look increasing likely that:

1. Turkey was getting antsy about Russian aircraft basically flying right along their border.

2. Russian aircraft 'may' have (inadvertently or intentionally, but probably as a route of convenience or poor navigational guidance rather than an intentional show of arrogance) crossed the Turkish border.

3. Turkish air traffic has issued multiple (at least 2, potentially up to 10) warnings which the Russian pilot may or may not have heard.

4. Rather than fly close escort and 'suggest' they vacate, instead chosen to engage with air-to-air missiles, possibly from a distance. The Russian pilot may or may not have been aware until his RWR went off.

5. Possibly (or probably) the shoot took place in Turkish airspace, but by the time of the hit the Russian aircraft was already back in Syrian airspace.

Does seem to have been a bit of a knee jerk reaction in a tense environment.

Finally, it is interesting that the Russian marine killed by the TOW attack was a "contract" soldier, whatever that means in Russian terms.

"Contract soldier" = kontrakniki(sp?) = full-time, volunteer, professional soldier who has signed an enlistment contract. Basically the same sort of professional volunteer that we have in the West.

What Putin is trying to do is to wipe out what remains of the moderate opposition to make the civil war a simple, two sided affair.

Six months ago Western media outlets were reporting that there were no moderate rebels. ( link ) ( link ) ( link ) So did they just *poof* magically appear as soon as Russia started bombing and we needed to demonize them, lest they steal the limelight?

it's not like they've recently bombed a Russian airliner…

..but oddly Putin is leaving the people who did alone.

An unnamed DoD source states otherwise via CNN: ( link )

That the Western media says something doesn't make it true. The 'moderates' are getting hammered by all sides and are frankly not up to much, but they still exist.

There's 10K Turkmen fighters who don't use chemical weapons on civilians, burn POWs, behead people or drop barrel bombs on civilians…

In the context of this conflict, that's moderate enough for me.

I don't doubt the Russians lob to occasional bomb in the general direction of ISIS, but everything I've read suggests they're concentrating on other groups.

Ankara finally decided to issue condolescences on the episode., when Turkish Foreign Affairs minister called our Lavrov today.
Turks again told our FA minister that they were not aware that it was Russian plane, and thought it was Syrian. Makes my suggestion that the warning was in the language none of our pilots could undertand even more real.
Lavrov parried with Erdogan own words on downed F4 in 2012 – "Short incursion in sovereign air space can not be a pretext for downing a plane".
While Russia might lose some business in Turkey (most important is a new NPP), Turks own losses will be much higher in both construction and trade in Russia, and lack of Russian tourists, adding over 30 bln/year to Turkish economy. Seeing advanced weapons in Kurdish hands might make them even more nervous. Guess that the facts about the incident are making Ankara position more flexible…

Well TBH that's a faster apology than the Kremlin usually provides….`

If they thought the plane as Syrian that explains a lot, given the Syrians have shot a Turkish F4 down before.

As you say Barin, might also explain why the Russians didn't listen to, or understand, any warnings given.

Looks more and more like an avoidable accident, with some fault on both sides.. Turks should be more careful, Russians should know where the hell they are.

"That the Western media says something doesn't make it true."

Indeed in fact its often the opposite. The problem is the media went seemlessly from being the fourth estate with good and bad jounalists reporting events with varying degrees of partiality to becoming a self declared part of the political class.

The political class's job is to keep itself in business that of a journalist is to report on what the political class is up to. Hence the terminal decline of the main stream media no one belives most of the stuff pumped out.

Truth has a way of getting out these days thanks to improved technology.

It looks like the Syrians and Russian Commandos recovered the surviving pilot. During raid mission. However, it appears the other's body is still missing … unfortunately …

Also it looks like the Russians have deployed AD missiles near the Turkish border.

Both Erdogan and Putin can be very stubborn among other things. So we shall see …

I doubt the missles are on the border, they odn't control it.

I think they've said they'll deploy their latest AA kit to Latakia.

Which should also give the IAF pause… I doubt they'll bomb this lot before it gets deployed.

Russia will deploy SA-400 air defense systems in Syria in response to Turkish aggression…

-Mere rhetoric to show how tough Russian response is.

Russia had already emplaced SA-400 systems in Latakia during original build-up in Oct. They were displayed to journalists at that time and already reported in news. This was just meant to for internal Russian consumption but hyped by some Western media.

stu, Actually I think I heard they are 30 miles from the border … so that shouldn't be a problem. And I doubt Putin will be taking any shots at the Israeli strikes. Putin and Bibi made a deal I suspect.

I hope so. Bibi over-playing his hand with his new neighbours is what I'm worried about.

I thought the Israelis were opposed to new air defenses in Syria…

I'm pretty sure the Isrealis are always opposed to any kind of defenses for Syria.

Yep … I'd go with that … But things just keep evolving … sometimes in some very unexpected ways. I highly doubt the Russians want to alienate anymore of the locals. And the IDF is actually a military that can fight and fight effectively. Unlike most of the other locals.

And Putin is enjoying how the US is treating the Israelis. Plus Bibi is no fan of many of the US's current policies in regards to Israel. Bibi is probably having a laugh to see the US's best Mid East ally talking to the US's #1 "enemy". Since the US has treated the Israelis like a "red headed step child" …

The sultans in his new 3 bn palace has a son, Bilal, heavily involved in making a fortune with scumbags'oil, even taken in pictures with his pals.
It might have been a reason to try stopping the new destroying such a juicy thing.

Vladimir did not back up, they bombed in force the same place today: no sanctuary, attempt failed.
Hollande sneakily said this border should be sealed shut. You know the way it was efficiently done to the Kurdish wounded not long ago.
Yes they can.

I doubt the Russians want to fight the Israelis.

But on the other hand, I doubt the Israelis want to push the Russians – because the Russians WILL respond.

And the Russians provide the kind of opposition the Israelis aren't used to either…. it's a bit different to fighting 3rd world nations without any combat aircraft (Lebanon)…

On a lighter note:

:)

well, military responce is not discussed at the moment. However green light is given for representative office of Kurds in Russia, tourism basically stopped, and Russia is checking possibilty of food embargo.

I'd say a year without tourists or food exports might calm down a certain trigger-happy military. Funny thing, that parliament committee proposed to lift food embargo from Greece if there is one for Turkey ;)

Speaking of Israel, I seriously doubt any real confrontation. We know israel mentality and capabilities, they know ours. There were consultations in September, and many times before. I don't think Russia has agreed to protect Hezbollah even if they're allied to Assad with whom we're allied at the moment…

I'd say a year without tourists or food exports might calm down a certain trigger-happy military

So far …tourists have been warned against travelling there for "security reasons" but seemingly not banned.

Reported to day that Russia's foreign minister has called the decision to shoot down the plane a "planned provocation", without speculating on Turkey's supposed motive (which is more than likely a slightly hot trigger finger in a tense environment than any intentional attempt to provoke Russia into a direct confrontation) but his conclusion was critical: "We do not intend to go to war with Turkey".

Turkey has released what it claims are actual radio messages sent. No doubt there will be claims that these have been manufactured after the event, and it is difficult to prove either way these days. The co-pilot has stated, "There was no warning. Not via radio, or visually. There was no contact at all". He says the jet was shot down from behind. "If they had wanted to warn us, then they could have shown themselves – flown in parallel."

He is of course right, you would normally expect to be escorted out, rather than shot down, although if (as claimed) they suspected it was a Syrian jet they may have felt the intentions were more aggressive. Of course if Russian jets have been regularly and frequently crossing that finger of Turkey as a shortcut rather than a one-off…

Russia has stated that bomber flights will now be escorted by fighters. But will it also stop Russian jets from crossing the Turkish border? We will see.

Slightly more worrying:

As for the rescued co-pilot, he says he is impatient to return to the skies. "I want to stay here," he said, referring to the Russian airbase. "I want payback for my commander.""

We clearly don't want tit-for-tat revenge attacks.

All of our major tourist companies canceled all advance and current tours to Turkey, with exception of the tours where the people are already in Turkey. Some people are trying to get there via Byelorussia at the moment, but for most the tourism is over for indefinite period of time.

Actually, co-pilot full statement was, that he asked to return to active duty in Syria to continue anti-terrorist strikes for a payback for his commander.
Therefore Turkish pilot is safe, while those on the video, shooting descending pilot are not.