"Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet" Topic

Legion 4, you have no idea how true that statement really is….. Regarding Afghanistan and the M'j-seen. We created this whole mess…..

TGerritsen..very neatpost…but just a little effor to be more neat..or could i say true..
which is the difference between "opponent to Assad".."DAESH"..or better..why we must say there is a difference? and if you are so well informed and more subtile that my simple minded rough approach in not recognicing any difference…do you think that those "supposed to be" anti assad freedom fighters..once freed from him..will be very friendly to us?

The aviation experts has already pointed that the plane was in Turkish airspace for about 15 sec… I wonder how fast you can make 10 warnings…

I suspect there was some exaggeration and a bit of fast and loose by both sides. A couple of "turn back or we will shoot" which, as surmised above, they may not even have heard due to lack of coordination over operational frequencies, a bit of 'convenient shortcut' on the flight path and a failure to properly talk to each other seems to have resulted in an unfortunate loss of life for the pilot.

Thinking after the event, POWs would probably have made a stronger bargaining chip, but in the heat of the moment…

BtW, Ukraine knows exactly who has blown the electric line. Judging how the things developed after first attempt to blow the line, they just allowed Crimea blockade activists to do what they want.

Allegedly. But then if Ukraine wasn't trying to prevent ongoing pressure further to the north east perhaps it might have been in a better position to police the situation. Of course if Russia hadn't annexed Crimea under dubious circumstances in the first place none of this would have been problem at all…

Given the attitude of the various partiesw we will probably never know what really happened. The main danger is that Turkey is a member of NATO and could call for NATO assistance if Russia retaliates militarily. NATO may say that terrorist attacks in Turkey are an internal matter but an attack by Russia would be different.

So what would be NATO's response? Attack Russia thus really ramping up the situation or ignore Turkey who then may close its airspace to all as well as shut down NATO bases

Legion 4, you have no idea how true that statement really is….. Regarding Afghanistan and the M'j-seen. We created this whole mess…..

Add GWII and we can see in hindsight two very major strategic errors that very much helped cause the situation we find ourselves in …

The New Grand Alliance against Daesh is now dead. Erdogan has just shot it between the eyes. I think this is a calculated Turkish move to save Daesh. Yes, the masks are coming off. I wonder what our leaders will have to say about it.

This is a mess and everyone's hands are as dirty as can be. Show me an innocent party in this situation- I doubt you will find one.

You'd need a roster and numbed jerseys to ID all the players in this "game" …

Could you imagine all the different counter colors you'd need on an AH or SPI war game board/map of this mess ?

"The Russian SU-24 appears to have been bombing the Syrian opposition to Assad, NOT DAESH, in this instance. Turkey warned them that there would be consequences if this continued."

Yes its interesting.

The Russians were, in keeping with international law, invited into Syria by the Syrian Government to give military support. Accordingly they are hitting all the jihadis operating in Syria as they always said they would.

The US State Department and the VP have told us that the only viable military formations fighting the Syrian Government are AQ and ISIL.

The Turks have a relationship with the jihadis and have now bitten off more than they can chew to defend it.

I cannot see any NATO ally thinking well of this.

Erdogan has just shot it between the eyes. I think this is a calculated Turkish move to save Daesh

And once again, as I had said, the Turks prove to less than good allies …

The Russians… are hitting all the jihadis operating in Syria as they always said they would

Then again, Russia has also banned yoga…

link

"The move is crucial "in order to prevent the spread of new religious cults and movements"… [referring] to Hatha yoga as "inextricably linked to religious practices" and as having "an occult character"

It gets more surreal:

"Last week saw hundreds of thousands of people around the globe celebrate the first ever International Yoga Day. The day caused controversy in India when Muslim politicians said it was an attempt to force people to conform to Hindu practices which go against Islamic teaching. When a Muslim campaigner accused the government of trying to push a Hindu agenda in its promotion of International Yoga Day, an MP from the Hindu nationalist party suggested that any Muslims opposed to yoga should "go drown in the sea."

Perhaps that's what Russian bombings are attempting to do?

The Pentagon has verified that they heard the warnings over the radio net. However, if the SU-24 was on another freq, on radio silence or ordered not to responded … it may mean little …

ITALWARS, I googled factions in Syria and even I am amazed and quite a bit horrified at the results:
link

As to your question as to wether any of them would be friendly, I think for the most part not. Anyone strong enough to win all of Syria would be most likely locked into the same foreign policies that exist in the region. If Syria broke up there might be a fragment or two likely to lean our way, e.g. Kurds, but then our foreign policy is so bass ackwards as to probably not welcome them.

fubar'd at so many levels.

Geoff, do you even know where Nizhevartovsk is?
My four friends from work are going for their yoga lessons regularly, without any problems.
Saying that Russian state wants to ban yoga is at the same scale as saying that UK is covering high ranking paedophyles for years…or wait, it is more or less true…;)

And..just imagine what whining will be there if Russia in retaliation will cut coal supplies to Ukraine until the electricity will be restored? Don't you think it might be justified? Eye for an eye, you know…

Official Turks claim to Un shows the stuff: plane was at one point some 1.6x1.15 km inside territory. No one shoots for that. Not even on a trajectory towards turkish territory:
It is an aggression… From the Turks and should be treated as such with all the implications of this mockery of a coalition.

As was said above, if applying to UN pure regs. the only planes having full authorizations over Syria are Russians…

And Turkey has no right to claim any part as hers or nearly so. Maybe they can send 15000 turkmen troops in it and have people vote at 86% to reintegrate this ancient ottoman teritory…
Would that change something for NATo?

The Turks have very probably shot themselves in the foot big time here. I would not be surprised to see the Russians in very short order deciding to actively support Kurdish independence, supply arms to Kurdish forces etc.

Barin – I think this is an over-reaction by the Turks, and a situation easily avoided.

That said, it's not like you don't know how touchy your neighbours are…. and it's not like Russia doesn't have a history of this kind of behaviour around its borders.

We're all lucky the Finns and NATO air patrols over the Baltic are more understanding…

My other point was that Russian behaviour over it's involvement in Ukraine and in murdering several hundred civilians means we can't really believe what the Kremlin says. It has a recent history of manufacturing evidence….

So, the Turks over-reacted (at best) but the Russians should have known better.

The single best way to slap the newly empowered Erdogan would be to support Kurdish independence but that would enrage both Iraq and Iran who are allied with Russia to varying degrees on seeing Assad survive.

To call this a mess is a gross understatement and certainly NATO has no business backing the Turks.

ITALWARS, I'm not supposing anything, just pointing out that this isn't so neat as just Russia vs. Turkey. The west thought there were good guys there to arm and fight against Assad. The official policy of most Western governments is to remove both DAESH and Assad. Not everyone in Syria who opposes Assad is part of DAESH. There's lots of players and none of them are particularly pleasant.

My point wasn't to defend anyone, but rather condemn all of them.

This whole event could unravel NATO (and Putin and several others would love that) if not handled deftly. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone involved using deft hands.

"Then again, Russia has also banned yoga…"

Seriously Geoff is that the best you could come up with?

BTW – shooting at bailed pilots from a distressed aircraft is apparently a war-crime, though shooting descending airborne troops isn't.

Protocol 1 Geneva Convention…

Ah yes ITALWARS, my old Brownshirt mate, of course it's evil NATO aggression against a peaceful Russian penetration of sovereign airspace…

And Barin, the Su-24 was warned AS IT WAS APPROACHING Turkish airspace. So yes, it could easily be warned 10 times. Most of those warnings would take place long before it actually penetrated sovereign airspace. Just was we do when your lads are ing about near our airspace – do you seriously think that we only give warnings after you cross into sovereign airspace?

I would also remind everyone that the Syrians shot down a Turkish F4 in international airspace three years ago and the Turks have repeatedly issued warnings regarding previous violations and close-approaches of their airspace. Russia has also repeatedly failed to respond to requests for de-confliction discussions regardign air operations.

Bangorstu,
Per my Laws of Land warefare class in the USMC the difference is that a paratrooper is deployed via parachute, while for a pilot it is a survival mechanism.

Yup, shooting at pilots parachuting out of downed planes is a war crime. Also, I don't think the NATO alliance requires members to aid a member that commits an act of war. Therefore, the NATO members have the flexibility to not allow Turkey to drag them into a regional war. I would expect for Russia to retaliate for this; I don't see how Putin can let this go.

Obviously it was a dangerous air attack of a vital populated part of Turkey followed by a botched ( they landed in Syria) attempt at sending(2) paratroopeers.
Probably pathfinders.
Sneaky Russians.

Wikileaks:
In just the first month of 2014 Turkish jets are claimed to have violated Greek airspace 1,017 times al-monitor.com/pulse/original…
7:42pm – 24 Nov 15

Turkish troops didn't shoot the descending aircrew (which yes, is a disgusting war crime).

Only their cronies. Oh wait only the Russians have.

Jcfrog, try flying an armed warplane over unpopulated parts of Russia and see how far you get…

Jcfrog, so just to be clear you're saying that Turkey has direct responsibility for war crimes committed by their alligned rebels in Syria?

Jemima – basically a significant chunk of warzone is near Turkish border. As long as the plane was in Syrian airspace it can ignore the warning.
Anyway, we still need the results of investigations – who, where, when and how was giving these warnings, and pushing launch button.
Meanwhile, MOD confirmed the death of pilots and marine from rescue operation. Also, the spokesman confrmed a hit on MI-8 with waht seems like TOW.
Moskva cruiser will move closer to Lattakia, to add its SAM potential to base defences and bombers will be accompanied by fighter jets. It was announced that all potential threats will be neutralized.
All military cooperation with Turkey is stopped.
You might guess what it means.

Meanwhile….Erdogan announced that "Turkey and its allies are going to establish no-flight zone in Northern Syria".
Now, I wonder what allies he is talking about? Aren't they the same who are claiming to fight ISIS without actually hitting their power base?

I think you underestimate the size of Russia and overestimate its ability to police immediatly the remote parts of it, like if it had to.

If they ( Russians can be held for account for the atocities done by their clients/ selfappointed freedomfighters/ vacationing rebels/ lost paras/ volunteers…) then why others can't?

It does not diminish nor erase any ones actions btw.

I think now no one thinks Turkey was sort of ignorant / overwhelmed by those 600 trucks coming up and down with oil, all sorts of goodies, volunteers ( with visas? Or all tourists from EU?) crossing its borders.
The charade is down.

Imagine some one putting bombs in France ( and Germany) openly from a place where it gets its money and reinforcements from…a neighbour?
Very short of accomplice?

Barin,

That's absolutely true – he doesn't have to do a thing until he actually enters Turkish airspace.

But you can't claim they weren't warned when they then do enter Turkish airspace.

Speaking of warnings: link

Jcfrog,

Then we're in agreement. Both Turkey and Russia can be held responsible for the actions of their proxies. so Putin is responsible for the invasion of Ukraine and the murder of the passengers and crew of MH-70.

Thanks for the confirmation.

And yes, I agree completely that Turkey's actions throughout this crisis, from their failure to police their borders to their dealings with the Kurds, to their failure to deal with people-smuggling across the Aegean, have been revolting.

However, that doesn't mean that they are wrong to defend their sovereign airspace.

Am I right that protecting Turkmen in neighbouring state is fine, but protecting Russians in neighbouring state is not?

"Jcfrog, try flying an armed warplane over unpopulated parts of Russia and see how far you get…"

The RAF used to that fairly frequently, and the seriously heavily populated bits as well.

Ultimately yes. Of course as we all know it is most likely a responsability as a leader not for giving such an obviously moronic and counterproduvtive order to destroy that plane unless heavily under vodka.

He who pays / trains etc. assumes the consequenses of the possible Frankestein they gave birth to.

Those Turkmen rebels that the Turkish would like to protect at all cost are the one that 2 weeks ago bombed Latakia.

And you really think that the Russian are going to let them keep bombing their position without retaliation?

By the way one the 2 Russian choppers of the rescue mission was destroyed by a nice US TOW

youtube.com/watch?v=2vxxQOTCN18&feature=youtu.be

I heard this afternoon that the US has been quietly removing its Patriot batteries in Turkey. Anyone know if this is actually the case?

Seems a lot of stupidity to go around on all sides.

Bad if the Russians crossed the border, which we know they have repeatedly, previously.

Stupid in this case, though the same could be said of the Turks claiming a protection zone into Syria as well.

"And before the Russians get too defensive, they have a history of shooting down planes that invade their airspace too:

link

As does the US".

Citation needed for the US shooting aircraft down that have strayed into US airspace, please, TG.

I don't recall seeing any evidence of that, but perhaps there have been a few that I'm unaware of.

I must point out that this Russian plane was making its second incursion into Turkish airspace when it was shot down. Probably given orders to ignore Turkish warnings during pre-mission briefings.

I think that Putin has finally run out of luck. His unanswered acts of aggression in the past has emboldened him to feel that Russia is more feared than it actually is.

Don't know what will happen next, problem is that nobody does.

But the turks are trying to show, to force a point
And tactically they just forced the Ru (and everyone and its dog) trying to bomb north to have air cover or give up.
So halves or nearly so all attacks there if not more.
Protecting their friends.

ru defense ministry just said its strikes will have CAP, that Moskwa will move up and any " threat " shot down.
Everyone hold your breath please.

I hope our beloved geniuses in government will not find another pair of drawers to lower ( again) after all the rethorics of lately and go after the enemy no matter what.

NATO confirmed that it is backing Turkey security (and version of the incident). Figures with no flight zone and allies.
Ok, I'm off playing Fallout 4. Hope it doesn't turn real.

I'll bet that Russian bombing flights will stay clear of Turkish borders for a while at least.

Jcfrog, yes entirely agreed with that assessment, though the Russians have been filmed flying pure air defence and escort missions over Syria since the outset (as was pointed out when Putin tried to make propaganda capital about RAF recce Tornados carrying self-defence ASRAAMs).

I'll bet that Russian bombing flights will stay clear of Turkish borders for a while at least.

Or they'll fly with air cover, and dare the Turks to fire on them then…

At the beginning AFAIK they had only 4 SU 30. You don't go far with that for air cover.

Seriously Geoff is that the best you could come up with?

Sorry, it was meant to be tongue in cheek ;-)

Am I right that protecting Turkmen in neighbouring state is fine, but protecting Russians in neighbouring state is not?

Are the Turkmen Turkish citizens living in Syria or Ethnically Turkish Syrian citizens?

We're all wrong. It was a Ukrainian SAM… lifenews.ru/mobile/news/171514