"Cold Wars 2016" Topic

The Ike is a worse dump than the Host. I don't really care, but all the pampered elites who whine constantly about the Host can't possibly want to go to the Ike.

It is no winner, that is for sure, but it may be needed in a pinch if the Host shuts down as of next week. If the alternative is the Ike or no CW I'd pick the Ike. A larger facility is not likely going to be available on this short a notice.

When the WBC folks were looking to move, they found the IKE worse than the HOST.

I was going to say the same thing.

As for "pampered elites who whine constantly" I don't think its pampering for attendees to desire a place :

- that has reasonable handicapped access ( one year the Lampeter lift broke, tossing its occupant down a few feet and off his wheelchair ). The Host is a travesty in this regard.

- rooms with functioning door locks and no visible mold

- a bar that doesn't run out of beer multiple times a week the same week year after year

- a roof that doesn't leak

- a facility that doesn't suffer multiple widespread AC failures mid summer over different years

While its true that for some the Host may represent the limit of what they are able to afford, consider that a nicer/more expensive place may attract people too repulsed by the Host. So some attendee fall out be offset by those who are willing to pay more for a nicer place.

The upcoming new WBC venue in Seven Springs PA is almost 3 hours further west (altough as a plus, it doesn't require driving through any urban areas like DC/Baltimore for those coming from the north ) . Its slightly more expensive, and for sure does not have some of the nearby amenities that the Host does. Yet the onsite hotel, which is almost 50% larger than the Host, still sold out within a few weeks after bookings opened up – almost a year in advance. While overall attendance may drop ( the Board figures a 30% drop can still be economically viable ) the fast sell out of the hotel shows that for some, "if you build it they will come" and in this case, a nicer facility, albeit more geographically remote, can draw people.

Time will tell once the overall registrations start coming in. But so far, the move seems to be meeting with acceptance. Sure, some are not happy because they have a longer drive, and the nearest dirt cheap hotel is 20 minutes away. But I also know of several friends who refused to set foot in the Host but are now excited to go to a nicer facility.

I'm *not* saying Seven Springs is the answer for HMGS. But reading many of the arguments over the pros and cons of Fredericksburg vs the Host and other venue arguments, it appears that the HMGS board will be faced with many of the same issues that the WBC board was when confronted with the need to change venues. The WBC board chose perhaps a more unorthodox approach. There are no easy answers . Its more like the board having to decide the least painful alternative. In this case, the board chose to keep the costs as close to the Host as possible, but geography was compromised. It would appear that in order to keep within th existing geography people seem to desire, they are going to have to accept a higher expense – and from what I've heard, its not an insignificant amount to be in the BOS-NY-WASH corridor.

HG:

I totally agree the Ike is better than no CW. My comment was just with regard to the constant whining about the Host

Al,

I'm not going to get into a pissing match over whether the Host is a nice hotel. It isn't. I have had the good fortune to stay in some of the nicest hotels in the world in my life, and I understand very well the difference. That said, the excessive, over the top howling about the Host (especially when, as a group, we leave much to be desired in the hygiene area) has become so tiresome I just tune it out. Yes, it's an old hotel. Yes, it has a lot of breakdowns due to poor maintenance. But no, there is not killer mold lurking everywhere, ready to spring out like some creature feature movie. No, the rooms are not very dirty. In fact, the service and housekeeping at the Host isn't bad at all. I've seen worse in MUCH nicer hotels.

I wonder sometimes about all the whining, especially when I get home from a convention where I've seen cold cuts stored on a dozen ice cubes in the sinks, four and five grown men crammed into a single room, shirts that haven't been washed since Reagan was president (with more mold growing in the sweat stains than the Host could ever have).

What the convention attendees do to the bathrooms is a crime against humanity, and while I don't absolve the Host for poor cleaning, neither do I envy them the task of chasing around after hundreds of adult men peeing and crapping all over the floor. At least the people who stay in the Four Seasons can hit the bowl most of the time.

Historicon has shown that people won't accept a distant move. It's not the venue down there that has attendance down 50%…it's the distance. It is also fairly evident that the attendee base for our cons is, as a group, quite cheap. I don't care how many people come on here and talk about how inexpensive our cons are compared to others…the fact is increasing costs drives dealers away and reduces attendance. People will still argue, of course. Cold facts have never been enough to get some people to stop pounding their discredited drums.

If the Host is no longer an option, I do not envy the BOD. I have been critical of HMGS in the past, but one thing I will not lay at their door is the difficulty in finding new venues that work for us within a reasonable budget. Other people go to conventions and sit in classroom style seating or around tables, banquet style. We need giant tables to hold battlefields, so we require massive amounts of square footage for the number of people we have. It's not going to be easy to replace, and if the answer is F'burg or Pittsburgh, we're going to lose half the people attending Fall In and Cold Wars too.

If Cold Wars and Fall In are moved to F'Berg, you'll kill all three conventions. I believe the reason the dealers are able to do some business down there is because only Historicon is there. Put all three and you'll definitely saturate the market.

I'm just glad I frittered long enough to avoid paying the Host's demanded $109 USD up front. I imagine that, for those who have paid, it will either be honored or refunded, but my $$$ is still in my pocket and I am glad of it. It boggles the mind that they think they have the leverage to demand $109 USD up front when they had 40 rooms off-line at FI, they average 30 some percent occupancy, and are about to get auctioned.

In Baltimore we call that chutzpah.

civildisobedience, you summed it up perfectly.

I'm a little confused here; why are people assuming that IF the Host gets sold, the convention will be cancelled?

What leads any of you to believe that the new owners will take a wrecking ball to the place two seconds after the sale is complete?

A new owner is just that; a new owner of the Host.

I don't get the panic.

Putting my business hat on – and these are my own opinions -

If the Host is sold and changes ownership, if the contract is like most I have seen in the business world, the contract becomes null and void (not transferable or at least not transferable without agreement from both sides.)

If the Host does not sell at auction it just demonstrates the lack of commitment to the contract portfolio by the current owners. IMO based on my business experience, this is enough for HMGS to break the contracts without penalty. Of course, IMO, I would make sure there is an alternative site available and if so, seek legal council to have the contract terminated.

If you had a wedding planned for Q1/Q2 2016 would you really trust the Host to actually be able to come through?

I don't envy the BOD as they have a lot of work to do. Neither do I think there is gloom and doom. It will get handled. I just hope they do not wait to get a change done as the timing is a lot shorter than most think as there would be many things to line up at a new venue.

Double G,

I agree. There is still an excellent chance the Host will continue to operate after the auction. But it would be crazy not to plan for the not inconceivable contingency it does not.

CD:

Very well said (your longer post above).

BrigadeGames:

Also well said.

Double GG:

I think the logic goes, if the Host is sold, the value is the land, not the hotel. The room occupancy rates of less than 40% is a killer. One can imagine what their balance sheet looks like with costs from staff and minimal upkeep to keep the doors open. A new owner likely would want to develop the site. They would also want to reduce the tax burden in the mean time.

link

Tearing down their buildings would likely do that. Also, the buildings would need to be cleared anyway for development. This also goes to someone else's point that the new owner may not be in the hotel/resort business.

I'm a little confused here; why are people assuming that IF the Host gets sold, the convention will be cancelled?

It doesn't really matter what the readership is assuming. However, the BOD should assume that there is a possibility that HMGS may not be able to hold the convention at the Host, once it is sold. I'm sure they are looking at alternatives given that scenario.

Thanks everyone for chiming in; I don't envy the BOD, now they are between a rock and a hard place.

Do they move forward assuming the convention still will be at the Host, or do they scramble around looking for a new site; what happens if they pull the trigger on a new site and then the Host's new owners decide not to bulldoze the place and they want us there, then what?

What a mess…………..

HMGS will wait and see what happens with the Host Dec 16th IIRC), while no doubt calling all the likely suspect sites to see if they are available for both March and November. My guess is the VFCC got the first call. After that is anyone's guess.

For those that recall, the second Hcon at VFCC was cancelled close to game day, then rebooked at a reduced cost when construction was delayed.

For those that recall, the second Hcon at VFCC was cancelled close to game day, then rebooked at a reduced cost when construction was delayed.

Jim, your memory is faulty. The casino construction was scheduled to start a couple of weeks before Hcon11 which made a large portion of the space unavailable to us. Plans to hold Hcon in the available space had been made when a (predictable) schedule delay made the full space available to us. We knew about the reduced space in late CY 2010. The change back to full space occurred in the last week of April 2011. Historicon 2011 was never 'canceled.'

As the guy who redid al of the layouts I know where-of I speak.

Duncan

Has the HMGS BOD done any sort of membership survey to determine what people will accept/tolerate in terms of venue change? WBC did one before their last contract negotiation. They got a very high response rate – something like 70% of the attendees. Their feedback ( esp around price ) helped shape their decision.

Thanks Duncan. I knew there was a wrench in the works somewhere for that second con at VFCC. Now I remember, as there was some debate on what games would and would not be allowed, but in the end, all were. I believe I am right that the price of the VFCC was reduced, correct? I remember working as a judge for games at that con and the meeting rooms went on forever.

I seem to recall that attendance dropped again that year as it did the previous year at the VFCC. To be fair, I also seem to recall it was down slightly that last year at the Host.

Al:

Kind of late for that now. Here are the options:

1. Host is not sold, limps along till it is sold.
2. Host is sold. If so, likely closes sooner rather than later.
3. If Host is sold and closed, can HMGS find and put together a con for March, rougly three months, with major holidays in between? November? If so, does it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks?

The most likely options are the VFCC (good luck finding three full days open on weekends in less than a year – think weddings, shows, conventions, etc). The Ike, but not likely since it too has obtained dump status and the BOD is probably not favorably inclined (though I bet it is available) – then after that you spin into all new facilities. Likely need to nail down both CW and FI now – again, if the Host closes.

To be fair, the last year at the Host was a terrible year economically, and it still held up pretty well.

Slow down.

If we are put int the position of finding a replacement site for Cold Wars. It likely should be done as a one time thing. Before we commit to long term bookings we need to see how things turn out.

We should also reassess our criteria and prioritize them. For instance the one criteria that should be demoted to the periphery is definitely the onsite hotel issue. It is far too limiting to what we need. The space needed for games and vendors is unique among convention site seekers. Not to mention the flea market.

We'd be better suited to find a place without an attached hotel where the area in say a 5 to 10 mile radius has sufficient lodging. Our space needs just plain exceed the space available at most reasonable hotels.

Such a reassessment would allow us a larger choice of venues than we have been limiting ourselves to.

For instance the one criteria that should be demoted to the periphery is definitely the onsite hotel issue.

Some of us like a few drinks post gaming [particularly on Saturday evenings] – I, for one, wouldn't appreciate having to stumble back to my car at 1 AM, then driving to an offsite hotel…..

"Such a reassessment would allow us a larger choice of venues than we have been limiting ourselves to."

It would also help guarantee smaller crowds of attendees. It is a apparently a desired and apparently necessary feature of any possible location. After the Timonium fiasco I know I would never attend a con not in an attached or at least a very, very close hotel (a la FCC).

Ligniere,

Most attendees have to travel offsite to their lodgings including those of us who enjoy the odd beverage or two or three. However if the host is lost and the other alternatives are limited not only by our real needs(gaming space and secure dealer hall areas)but by our druthers (attached hotel and more importantly byob) We may find that the costs are so significantly increased as to destroy our mission of providing a gathering place to put on and play in our games.

And just a few weeks ago everyone was saying how the condition of the rooms and restaurants at the host didn't matter because everyone stayed and ate off site. Now its a must have again. No wonder the BOD can't get it right, the target changes every day.

I don't see the harm in conducting a survey, esp if the Host sale doesn't impact the next con or two. Even if a short term forced move, if the alternate venue is a stop gap, the BOD will be once again looking for a venue. In short, there doesn't seem to be any downside, and when members see the results, it gives them an idea of their fellow gamers preferences and quantifies things such as price thresholds, travel times, etc.

"And just a few weeks ago everyone was saying how the condition of the rooms and restaurants at the host didn't matter . . ."

Not everyone. A couple of guys who have posted here have said that, but I doubt that is the majority view. Remember Timonium. Indeed, some of the anti-FCC crowd complain that the hotels are off-site.

thomalley is correct, though – no matter what the BOD does, there will be people who whine about it.

Well I just singed up for 2 tables as a vendor and submitted 3 events. Figured it was worth the risk as if it does go on and I wait to long I will miss out on one or both.

The attached hotel stipulation is way too self limiting and a bit silly.
Honestly why is it such a hardship to drive up and load/unload your gaming gear?
Is this really all it takes to make you stay home instead of enjoying a weekend of gaming?

Many of the regional gaming conventions do this as a matter of coarse. I myself bring an SUV Full of terrain to each convention and I don't even think twice about it.

TRU

I agree with the onsite hotel being silly. I am one of those that have never stayed at a convention hotel. I considered it one year but decided not to bother.

If you had assigned, parking, based on your room number, and if you leave you are guaranteed that parking spot again, it might not be bad but things are too messed up with parking at the Host as is.

I have been a GM and have hauled in everything from 20mm figures to 54mm figures.

It should be a nice to have, but not necessary. That bar area gets emptier and emptier earlier every year. :-) Can't answer for those taking their drink elsewhere.

Michael, does any hotel guarantee parking?

I much prefer the onsite hotel, but it is strictly speaking not necessary. Still, a lot of people want it, and if we don't have it attendance will likely fall. Fredericksburg has taught us how fragile attendance is at these things

I was just scanning back up the thread and came across this from Nov 22 (posted by Duncan):

It almost seems like the Host doesn't want to be in the hotel business.

Given the current auction, a more prescient statement has never been spoken!

I understand the sweet spot is somewhere in southeast PA and there are some on the BoD who would be loath to even utter the name Fredericksburg but given the short timeframes and logistical challenges involved in relocating it would seem to me that the Fredercksburg site is the best option for a one time CW.

The BoD has a relationship with the venue, convention staff know the site, GM's understand the layout, vendors are familiar with the dealer area. Assuming it is available I can't imagine the hotels in that area don't have availability in the dreary days of February or March. And, although there are no guaentees, the weather becomes less of an issue assuming you can get a March date…February is still somewhat iffy.

The only problem (well, okay, there is more than one) is that given the alarming decline of attendance at CW, and the high cost of the FCC facility, it may not be economically feasible.

Pancerni2 is correct, as usual, up to a point.

If the sale of the Host goes through, you can bet there are those who will push to have Cold Wars 2016 in VA.

There are also those who will oppose the move.

That's when the real fireworks will begin.

Stay tuned.

Disco Joe – I have seen some hotels have your room number either painted in your parking spot or have signs letting you know what is hotel registered guest parking or "other" visitor parking.

The Host used to have that front area designated for the comedy club. If there was a designated loading/unloading area for GMs, designated GM parking, and then designated player parking, it would help with the parking situation. Of course HMGS would have to have staff to monitor all of this.

"Pancerni2 is correct, as usual, up to a point" Yes, I am…just where exactly is that point?

Cost for the FCC could be a killer…I don't know if there is an "off season" discount…and I would expect February and March to be an off season if there ever was one. Also, the main reason behind declining attendance at CW was weather related…weather is always an uncontrolable variable.

We have a convention center and a lot of hotels along the I 81 and I 70 corridors in Hagerstown, MD. Plenty of restaurants too plus a mall and outlet stores. Just an idea. Thanks

I respectfully disagree about weather being the primary factor for the decline in CW numbers. It certainly was last year, but not in the years before. I'll leave it up to others why that was so. :-)

Pancerni2,

I'm trying to hold off debating the merits of alternate locations, including the FCC, until:

1) a sale of the Host is announced;
2) the sale actually closes; and
3) HMGS receives notice from the new owner that the Host is unavailable for Cold Wars 2016.

This also presumes that any new owner would be unwilling or unable to offer a substitute location to HMGS which HMGS would find acceptable.

All of the above hurdles have to be met before HMGS can reasonably notify its core groups (GMs, Vendors, Staff) that "Moving Day" (or "Judgement Day") is really here.

So, while I prefer to hold my fire against the FCC, here's a preview of arguments against that location:

1) On the one hand, if the precedent of the move of Historicon from the Host to the FCC is applied, attendance at Cold Wars can be expected to drop by roughly one quarter to one third. Last year's attendance for CW was roughly 1600. A drop of one quarter takes HMGS to 1200. Not sure if that makes a move to the FCC worth it.

2) On the other hand, and to be fair, a move to the FCC might actually INCREASE attendance at Cold Wars. This is if you believe that many in and out of HMGS have dropped Cold Wars since the move of Historicon down South (a topic I was going to raise on TMP before the sale of the Host was announced). The only way to find out may be to take the risk and move the convention. In a way, it reminds me of the proposed move of Historicon to Baltimore. The only real way to prove that it was a disaster waiting to happen was to proceed. In the end, cooler, or at least more cautious, heads prevailed.

3) You mentioned that convention staff are familiar with the FCC location and that would be an advantage in moving the convention on short notice. Yes and no. HISTORICON staff is familiar with the location; COLD WARS staff is not. The two groups are not identical, including two different convention directors. There is no guarantee that CW staff, including senior staff, would be willing or able to take on the responsibilities of CW at the FCC. Thus, you might need some replacement staff in short order. Some members might be drawn from the Historicon staff, but that would put the burden of two conventions, back to back within less than six months, on a very small group.

4) If Cold Wars is moved to the FCC, then the same argument can be made later in the year that Fall In should also be moved there if the Host is unavailable in November. Given that HMGS is contractually bound to have Historicon at the FCC in July, ALL the HMGS conventions for 2016 could end up being held in VA.

You can imagine the reaction of the "Cranky Yankees" to that possibility.

5) Weather would still be a factor in VA, and perhaps more so. It might be sunny and clear for those coming from the South, but those coming from the North would have a longer ride to the FCC through uncertain conditions. One day passes, which account for much of the Saturday Vendor Hall traffic, might drop off considerably.

Off the top of my head, those are some of the initial issues that may come up IF the Host is unavailable and the FCC is its proposed replacement.

But give me time. I'm sure I (and others) will think of more. :)

We'll see.

A lot of speculative discussion on this topic in a number of posts. I am satisfied with the HMGS e-mail last week on the situation and that they are watching it and planning contingencies. I think the HMGS BOD is in a tough situation, but I have trust they will make a good call on other locations if the Host gets demolished or is unavailable in March.

I did not have issues with the Host. But I did not eat or sleep there. I found it good enough for a convention, but I understand others expect more from a location.