"Best Skirmish Rules for WWII & Cold War Gaming?" Topic

I suspect there'll be a lot of different opinions on this question, but I'm interested in knowing which rules people think are the best for the following categories of skirmish gaming, with the caveat that I'm interested in the most realistic "real-world" tactics, and gaming mechanisms for representing that, for the appropriate periods?

1. WWII
2. Cold War
3. Post-Cold War (1990 to the present day – AKA – the Ultramodern period)

For skirmishes, I define that as anywhere from a squad to a platoon of men, and up to a platoon of vehicles per side.

I'm primarily interested in man-to-man level combat resolution, but will consider fireteam, or even squad-level unit resolution, if you think the rules are particularly good for skirmish games, using those dynamics, instead of the man-to-man level firing and outcomes.

What I'm after are rules that do a really good job of replicating the tactical nuances that soldiers on the battlefield, and their squad/platoon leaders would need to consider when fighting their opponents, e.g. tactics, pinning and outmaneuvering enemies, suppressive fire, attempting to keep own casualties to a minimum, leadership, different weapons capabilities, etc., etc..

I suspect an entire book could be written on the subject, especially given the options of man-to-man combat, combat by fireteams, and/or by squads.

Thoughts?

Hands down Chain of Command for WW2.

Will probably be the soon out 2fat lardies ones.
And Force on force. For modern.
Probably Chain of command and possibly Sudu's new one, I never read but he is a safe bet.

Nuts:Final Version for WWII.

FNG: 2nd Tour for Vietnam and both are adaptable for other post WWII games. There is a supplement to Korea too.

They are by Two Hour Wargames and use similar mechanics.

FNG is currently being revised.

Tom

And as usual I go for the other Lardie set TW&T, WW II based but easy to adapt for more modern conflicts.

Fatman

I'd definitely go with Chain of Command for WW2 and (as I've play tested) TFL's forthcoming Fighting Season for Afghanistan & Iraq.

Probably Chain of command and possibly Sudu's new one, I never read but he is a safe bet.

If you visit this page link and click on the "View Rulebook" link, you can read the basic rules of Combat Patrol (mentioned by Jcfrog above) to see if that suits you. There is also a demonstration video on YouTube here: YouTube link Finally, there is a Web page with some additional information here: link

Buck Surdu

Another vote for NUTS! for WW2. Chain of Command is on my list, but have not tried it yet.

5Core Skirmish is pretty good too. While it has really simple mechanics, I think it portrays some aspects of modern warfare very well, such as most fire is suppressing in nature, etc.

I have not tried Force on Force, but I think Tomorrow's war does it well too.

The common thread is a good reaction fire mechanic and winning fire superiority will tend to pin or drive off your opponent.

Arc of Fire. Skirmish rules for the entire 20th century.

The ones you like are the best rules for skirmishing.

echoing Garry Owen's rec for FNG. Also Charlie Company is great for Vietnam. For squad and fireteam level, Disposable Heroes(WW2), Long Road South(Vietnam) and Seek out and Destroy for Modern.

Saw Chain of Command run at a recent convention, but did not get to play. It looked good and covered all the bases you are looking for.

NUTS for WWII and Force on Force for anything modern.

My plug for Chain of Command.

P.

Arc of Fire, integrates vehicles and infantry and support weapons……..1900 up to present day…….the Skirmish Campaign scenario books are 'plug n play' with the ruleset too.
If you run about in the open then MG's will chop you down, simple morale rules too, leaders can rally 'broken' units before they retreat off table, some nations/units are more brittle and some are tough ( Japs for example!)……
Had many a great game with them!

For Cold War and later conflicts there's "Force on Force" from
Ambush Alley. Check it out: link

For WWII I use the Bolt Action rules: link

Entire books have indeed been written on the subject :-)

I'd put up my own "No End in Sight" rules.
Fire is mainly suppressive, until you get up close, reaction fire is a constant factor rather than something you have to declare as an action, most hits wound rather than kill and you have to manage the build-up of stress on your troops as you go.

Keep pushing the same squad forward as it takes losses, and it'll become combat ineffective soon enough.

Includes campaign options for peacekeeping missions, ww3 and a few others.

It's aimed at a platoon per side, individually based.

link

Chain of Command gets my vote. Plenty of freebies on forum and support is incredible. they have a modern set due out shortly.
Mark

If one goes with the platoon as a maneuver element then CoC and Battlegroup xxxx are good bets. If you want less than a platoon and imbalane then find Arc of Fire or THW Nuts! The most useful.

You could try Bolt Action with 2 activation dice for each section/squad; one for the rifle group, one for the LMG group.

telling I've added some step by step Bat reps that shows how NUTS plays. There are lots of rules out there and I'm sure you'll find something.

link

link

link

link

link

Actually, for ww2 there's not a lot of fireteam action going on.
Many platoons had 2 or less effective leaders and the men were conscripts.

Personally I decided I liked stargrunt2 some time back and adapted it to ww2.
You could use it for post ww2 and make fireteams the level you activate at. And it's a free download from GZG.
Being a web developer, I of course haven't maintained my own personal web site for like forever…
link

I also like ambush alley's stuff.

If you like man to man combat then I suggest Nuts!, one man equals one mini. It gets personal because you play a squad leader and you get to know your guys. When the shooting starts, you never know how your guys are going to react. Also great if you like to play solo and campaign you men.

1. Chain of Command
2. Force on Force
3. Force on Force/Skirmish Sangin

Another posting for Iron Ivan's Disposable Heroes (WWII), the Long Road South (Vietnam War) and Seek Out and Destroy (Modern). I have enjoyed playing these rules by Keith and Chal for many years and expect to use these rules many more.

World War 2 – NUTS! is a man-to-man level game. Your scenario can be a small section of British commandos raiding German radar bunker along the coast. Or you can have one downed Russian pilot trying to get past German guards in the woods. Or a Stuart tank crew (all 5 tankers have stats) desperately trying to repair a tank tread at the table edge while their supporting GI squad holds off a small counter-attack in the village. Those British commandos can actually sneak up and perform hand-to-hand combat with trench-knives.

So you can play a one-on-one encounter, partial squad encounters, full squad encounters even platoon encounters. You can add vehicles (from jeeps to tanks) individually or as a platoon. The game is best played with squads though.

There isn't a scale for NUTS! It can be played with 15mm, 20mm, 28mm or other scales that you prefer.

Though troopers can cooly calculate their actions going into the combat, NUTS! figures 'react' to being shot at. Depending on each figure's Combat Rating (or REP), he may continue doing what he was doing, duck for cover or become pinned (Hunker Down).

What I think makes NUTS! unique is that you can give any figure a little personality by assigning (or dicing) them Attributes, like the usual Crack Shot or Born Leader or the more interesting Lucky or Clumsy. There are even mechanics for doing unusual non-ruled things like negotiating with a Vichy Mayor to surrender the town or stealthily leaping onto the SS officer who has just captured your friends in the Italian Farmhouse.

Sans Attributes, NUTS! is a Miniatures game. With Attributes, NUTS! is can be a Role-Playing Miniatures game.

Here is a Kelly's Heroes scenario for NUTS!
link

I've also enjoyed Chain of Command very much. I felt Bolt Action got too mired in Pinning.

Cold War – THW has Fire in Korea and FNG (Viet Nam). I've also played AK 47 (Banana Republic/Africa battles) and that was fun.

+1 Chain of Command… can't wait for the cold war and modern versions of it.

Mako11:
For small scale actions of less than platoon size:
WWII – Battleground WWII buy Easy-Eight.
Modern – NEIS. I also have quite a few recommendations for Skirmish Sangin but I have never played it myself.

For Actions of platoon plus size:
WWII – Arc of Fire or BGWWII. CoC and IABSM are always very good options too.
Modern – Force on Force.

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

I'm going to be using No End In Sight, 5 Men in Normandy (modified slightly for a more modern flavor), and Osprey's Black Ops.

V/R,
Jack

If I was going to restrict myself to one set of mechanics, I'd play Force on Force. The engine flexes enough to handle WW2 reasonably well (and I've played Colonial games with ~10-strong "companies"). You need to split the squads into Gun group and rifle group. Or gun groups and rifle group, depending on force org.

Need to get a game or three of Chain of Command, I really like the Patrol Phase and moving jump-off points before you start feeding in the rest of the platoon.

Chain of Command gets my vote and Force on Force for modern period.

Thanks for all the numerous, and great suggestions.

I really appreciate them, and will check them out.

I'm adding in my vote for THW's games as mentioned previously; i.e. NUTS for WW2 plus Korea then FNG2 for Vietnam and later.

Unfortunately there isn't a published set of rules for Moderns, although I think a few people are slowly working on them, although you could easily take 5150:Star Army and take out the SciFi bits to leave you with a THW-flavoured Moderns game…

I have Nuts, Final Combat and 5 Men in Normandy. All very good skirmish level games.

NUTS! gets my vote, a great skirmish system that works well up to a platoon per side, and has a very well thought out solo and co-op gaming system.

Nuts! (especially the 1st edition) and TW&T are some of my favorites. To comment on the original post, the question may be phrased incorrectly. Pretty much all of the games suggested above and many more not mentioned here can be used to simulate real world tactics, so that is not ultimately the most useful rubric for picking a game. Rather, the game itself should be suitably challenging and interesting. Do the mechanics set you up for difficult choices? Do they leave enough things on the edge of player control to create a rich game atmosphere and battle environment every time? Basically, do the rules let you play the period?

Another vote for CoC but then I would say that as I was in the playtest group.

Personally for WWIi I like Boltaction and Nuts! I find Boltaction to be a lot more accessible for my buddies I am trying to woo away from the land of the grimdark future where you wear your tanks and hordes are green not red.

PS this might be a little off topic but does anyone know of a US retailer for Sabre Squadron?

I use Force on Force and FUBAR. I want to use "No End" but I'm having a rough time wrapping my mind around its mechanics. Ironic I guess because I think Force on Force is simple enough!

In no particular order

Force on Force
Chain of Command
No End in Sight

all really enjoyable

I will add another vote for Chain of Command. I had nearly given up on WWII gaming and these rules saved the period for me. I have also had great fun using them for the interwar period (SCW) and plan on using them for the First Indo-China War… but that second project is still a ways off.

custos, you a member of the TFL yahoo group? We talk about the upcoming Indo-China version (working title Le Coq Indochine) from time to time and I intend to run a DBP game early next year at a show in Sweden.

Just to fluff THW a bit more, we ran a few cold war games using Nuts and it worked fine. Didn't end up changing a thing, to be honest.

Hi! I would love to know yopur opinion (and critics) about "Rattenkrieg!" We are developing the rules for pure urban combat (28mm, skirmish, WW2). You can download the last version at rattenkrieg.com/Rattenkrieg.pdf. Just keep in mind that it's a work in progress. Thanks!

TGunner,
Where are you having an issue? I had the opposite reaction as you, Had to play Force on Force with some knowledgable players before i got it or liked it, whereas I read No End in Sight and "got it" the first time round.
Be happy to help
~Joe

Different rules emphasize different aspects of the intended period. Just about any WWII set can be easily adapted for the Cold War. I will offer that Chain of Command is an excellent set of rules with some really brilliant concepts. You can't go wrong there, and my guess is that the Cold War / modern version will be similar enough that you can move seamlessly between periods without having to learn radically different systems. I'm not a fan of Bolt Action; it doesn't feel right to me, and I don't like all the pressure to keep up with the supplement of the month. The games from Ed at Two Hour War-games are well regarded, and the chain reaction mechanic is very interesting. I've recently released a new set of rules (mentioned briefly by Jcfrog), called Combat Patrol. I have heard of a number of people adapting Star Grunt for WWII. I really like Hour of Glory for what it is as well.

For modern, Skirmish Sangin has a strong following as well as Force on Force and some of the other sets mentioned. I haven't played either enough to have a valid opinion or recommendation, but my early perception is that Skirmish Sangin is slower than other sets and may not scale to large, multi-player games as well as other systems do. Whether that matters is driven by the size of game you anticipate playing / running.

So two points:

1) The best rules for you will be the ones where what the author emphasized in his design meet your expectations / notions of WWII skirmish actions. A simulation naturally emphasizes some things and abstracts others. To figure out whether an author has emphasized the things you think should be emphasized, I think your best bet is to go to a convention with the specific intent of trying as many different rules sets in participation games as possible. That's how I shop for a set of rules when I am getting interested in a new period. I also have a policy that I don't form a shareable opinion of a set of rules until I have played them at least three times. Often on a first playing you do things wrong and miss some of the nuances.

2) It doesn't have to be an exclusive choice. Your choice does not have to be about pitting one designer (or system) against another. I think you might find that Chain of Command works for largish-skirmish games but some other system might suit your needs for a commando raid or something more Hollywood. At the skirmish level, figures are almost always mounted individually, so you can use more than one rule system without worrying about how the figures are based for one set versus another. Sometimes you may want to play a game with a lot of command friction, and other times you might be happier with IGO-UGO. You don't have be make an exclusive or forever choice.

Buck Surdu

Chain of command is the only 1 to 1 single figure skirmish set I would recommend.

end of… Period

that is period….as in for all periods.

Another vote for NUTS! for WWII

I went through a similar "shopping for rules" recently and had started with the assumption that Frank Chadwick's Men Under Fire would be the one to beat. I have liked his other rulesets, Volley & Bayonet and Command Decision for many years (all from TestOfBattle.com) but I was concerned that MUF didn't seem to have the strong support from the TOB forum and follow-on supplements that the other 2 had.

I narrowed to Chain of Command (CoC) having been very impressed with the You Tube examples and reviews. I have a lot respect for the Too Fat Lardies' approach.

Then I asked my gamer friend who was an infantry lieutenant and he recommended Nuts. I admit that my initial impression was that perhaps it was too simplistic because of the publisher's name, Two Hour Wargames, which while Finishable is a valuable promise, it can cut the other way by perhaps seeming less "realistic". What I found is that you can get a free 'generic' copy of the rules (without all the WWII stats and campaign aspects) to look at it. In some ways I felt that the system seems to be 'more realistic' than the rather abstract approach of CoC.

Then once I felt comfortable that it could handle the situation I was envisioning (Pegasus Bridge), it deals with "then what". As others say more eloquently, the game can be played as a normal one-off wargame or can be fit into a loose campaign series of games that could evolve over time across geographic military campaigns (if you want add figures for different uniforms, opponents, vehicles).

Now I have not played the game yet but then a number of others have indicated that they just own the game! I will come back to add a real review based on several playings.

Bill I'm a bit confused by your post. Did you try MUF and CoC and have now settled on NUTS or have you only tried NUTS so far? I would be interested in a comparison of the 3 different approaches.

And then there's Michael Korns SUTC, Small Unit Tactical Combat, from 1972, derived from his The Modern War in Miniature, both out of print and hard to get
Several problems with the rules
The game requires an umpire. The game is a Role Playing Game in which the gamer is represented by a military figure on the playing table, only able too see or hear what the figure could see or hear if transferred to a real situation, to include losing sight or hearing of his own people if they move away from him, and not really knowing what is happening unless he sees it, such abs whether or not that other soldier was hit and how badly
Korns didn't inlude any scenarios. There is a umpires handbook somewhere, without it you as the umpire will have to develop one
TThe rules deliver far more than the others mentioned because of the real uncertainty of the double lind system