"Model Train Hobby and the Wargaming Hobby" Topic

One idea to grow the tabletop wargaming hobby would be to connect more with model train hobby enthusiasts. For example, a club could set up a game or series of games at a model train hobby show or convention. Wargame manufacturers could set up booths to sell their wares (miniatures, rule books, terrain, etc). What do you think?

(a) Yes, it could work. The two hobbies are similar.
(b) Maybe, but I'm not sure.
(c) No, the two hobbies are very different.

One idea to grow the tabletop wargaming hobby would be to connect more with model train hobby enthusiasts.

(c) No, the two hobbies are very different.

One major difference is the terrain. Theirs is very detailed and specific.
My terrain is modular, and needs to be taken down after each game.

In any event, I keep getting annoyed about "growing the hobby". Why do we have to drag in model railroaders, or stamp collectors, or Connoisseurs of Edwardian erotica?My enjoyment of wargaming will not be enhanced by the necessary compromises of accommodating "other" hobbies.

Why do we have to drag in model railroaders, or stamp collectors, or Connoisseurs of Edwardian erotica?

Why not, we already have LARPers. Or, as they like to be called, "re-enactors".

(b) Maybe, but I'm not sure.

While I don't think that there is much in common as an 'on the night' activity*, there are huge areas of crossover in terms of paints, materials and scenery: I first used ModelMates weathering spray and fluids – a model railway product but now taken and re-branded successfully for the wargames market by PSC – by finding them on a Model Railway page on the web.

We all use trees, paint buildings and so forth.

Oh and they have their own stupid version of the "not-actually-a-scale" 28mm/15mm/heroic nonsense as we do, only its called 'O' gauge, 'N' gauge and so forth, so we sup at the same bar.

John T

* By which I mean the games I play either at shows, at clubs or with my mates, as opposed to the prep work and scenery stuff I do (mostly) on my own

(b)
There could be specialty train lay outs that boost interest in gaming miniatures

I am thinking civil war---a train stuck due to some rebs taking a section of rail and making a bow tie out of it

There is quite a bit of WWII footage of strafing runs on supply trains--possibly some sort of static display

But if the trains are not moving--the train guys will hate it.
And if the train is moving---you can not play a miniatures war game---so not a easy combo to make

I wouldnt bother. They are weird and socially awkward people.
ymmv

My dad is a model railway enthusiast. We frequently share tips on modelling – he on painting scenary, me on painting figures. Also, he models in UK 'O' gauge, so I get first dibs on his reject scratch built buildings – which are far superior to anything I can build.

c I bought some O scale kits from a RR guy & he was horrified when I mentioned I was using them for wargames.

Hey, Ravenscraft, as a model railroader I resemble that comment! BTW my wife says the same about gamers. :-)

It may be that they will make wargamers more attractive to women by comparison, but there is also the possibility that the reverse will apply.

Aside from seducing RR modelers into our den of iniquity, a display or demo at a train show gives the opportunity to show our hobby to others. Train shows do bring in lots of gawkers as well as RR enthusiasts.

Fall-In! just had a scenery company as a vendor and a report elsewhere on TMP said that they did well. That means they sold product and we found more stuff to use.

Maybe we could come up with a scenario for Thomas The Train meets Nazi Zombies at Waterloo.

(b) Maybe, but I'm not sure

Gomez Addams got me started in wargaming years ago when he actually blew up his model railroad trains on television.

Perhaps a Peter O'Toole / Lawrence of Arabia-type game where the players compete to blow up the Turkish Railroad in Arabia.

a game with a moving train? Quite a challenge! Maybe a prize to the first person/group to come with a game and scenario. Never say Never.

Very different although I do admire what railway modellers can achieve …

Phil

a) yes, the similarities in the hobbies are likely to grow each hobby by some amount. Wargaming will probably benefit more on a percentage basis, being the much smaller hobby. Model railroading will benefit from exposure to a hobby with higher figure painting standards. Wargaming will benefit from access to scenery and building resources. (although buildings will typically be limited to 1830's and newer)

c) no, they're rather different in time/motion/handling aspects. Until someone reconciles the continuous motion of model railroading with the turn-based action of most wargames, there ain't much hope.

As a hobbyist with a foot in both camps, I think vendors of one hobby attending shows of the other would benefit both. Will we be able to combine the two into a single activity, ummm…..

Perry

One of the country's larger model railroad stores up in Denver had a wargames type in to talk about how to paint figures for railroad layouts. I shop there from time to time, usually for scenic things.

As to recruiting them, unless they are willing to give up their trains, you are probably looking at folks who would do something that went with their trains: they already have Old West figures to go with their 1870s rail layout, so they might get into Gutshot or Pony Wars.

Grelber

Some of us are into both hobbies.

I'm always surprised that it's the differences that are always acknowledged and the 'us' and 'them' aspect. In many ways both hobbies are remarkably similar. They both tend to involve a lot of historical research, creativity, making and modelling. Where the hobbies really differ is in the 'playing' aspect. Of course as the end function of the models is rather different that effects the amount of detail that can be safely incorporated if breakages are to be avoided.

When it comes down to model making the higher end of the model railway hobby do a lot more primary research than the typical wargamer will. Wargamers often copy other people's painting style and their research and subsequent creation into historically plausible environments/battlefields is relatively poor – of course there are exceptions to this. I'm a huge fan of the approach taken by Bruce Weigle who sets out to model battlefields. I've often written that the biggest single part of our games is the terrain and yet, with some very notable exceptions, I think it typically remains the weakest part of our hobby.

There is no doubt in my mind that the model railway hobby would do well to study the figure painting methods, not of the wargaming hobby but of the military modelling hobby. So much of the production of wargamers is very heavily stylised to a point that it's never going to look natural enough to work in a model railway setting.

The wargames hobby could learn an awful lot from the model railway hobby. In the wargames hobby there tends to be the excuse that because we have to handle our buildings that this then gives a carte blanche to produce cartoon like representations with no consistent notion of scale. Of course not all wargaming buildings are like this and some are very nicely done but how many times do you see English Civil War buildings with black beams and white plaster with roof tiles that are the rough equivalent of 30" square? Too often I think, when if the wargamer had undertaken a little of the type of research the railway modeller would when creating the same building, the result would be far more historically plausible.

If you've not been to a really good model railways show where fine scale historically based layouts are shown it might be worth a day out. I never cease to be amazed at the skill sets some railway modellers develop. It's not like we have to sit down and make a Sherman tank to scale from brass sheet and white metal castings and make it work with active suspension whilst moving through terrain based on an actual location. That's the equivalent of what the historical railway modellers typically achieve.

As to showing both together – I have seen it done but I think those who are interested in figures are, to a large degree, dismissive of the railway layouts and visa versa. In other words the 'us' and 'them' remain too firmly entrenched across both hobbies for it to really be an effective recruitment method and after all some are only interested in military things and some only trains.

I am off to the local railway show this weekend, I am always amazed at the layouts themselves and the detail in the scenery and buildings and gawp at the locos and wagons. Brilliant stuff, but sometimes almost chuckle at the paint jobs on any human figures which is roughly what I was doing at aged 7 with Airfix figures. I guess if I was a model railway person I would similarly laugh at the average wargames set up's terrain but offer a grudging respect for the figures themselves. I usually manage to buy the odd tree, paint, flock or tools there so it is always worthwhile. I think it's probably true to say that we have far more in common than differences but our focusses are very different. Besides train buffs are anoraks, whilst we wargamers are dashing and erudite, sociable and confident people….

Wargames is a broad church. I actually do N scale railways because of a friends interest in railways. However to me they are definitely not similar. Wargames to me is about the play not the models. The models are a means to an end. I have to have something that looks like a tank so a card picture is of no use to me. I do not need want or care for other than something that looks appropriate. Excessive detail like on 28 mm figures to me is pointless it does not add to my appreciation of a war game. But like I said it's a broad church and we all have different and equally valid opinions. If you want more wargamers you might want to engage with gaming community not modelling events. These folk want to play games which is what it is about for me.

a club could set up a game or series of games at a model train hobby show or convention

We do; every year for the past 9.

Both "sides" (wargamers & train enthusiasts) regard each other with polite bewilderment.

There's a few (but remarkably few) ideas to be exchanged but I'm afraid it's Two Worlds.

I'm thinking of writing a Broadway-style musical where the son of a Wargamer gets romantically involved with the daughter of a model Train hobbyist.

It ends tragically.

I think it would be a great for both hobbies to get together at each others conventions. Both sides share a passion for miniatures and paintwork and though the focuses and goals are often different, we have alot in common.

The real benefit would be in public displays and conventions. I think folks from the general public that would come to a convention day to see one, would definitely enjoy seeing the other. Especially for Men, I think that model trains and model soldiers scratch some of the same nostalgic itches.

When looking at O-scale modelers I've noticed a huge proliferation of ready-made kits and in general a lack of scenic work. I've thought many times that if my son gets into railroading we could have a fantastic looking 0-Gauge layout just from the 28mm urban terrain I've built for my Mech convention games.

(c) No, the two hobbies are very different.

One idea to grow the tabletop wargaming hobby

I get tired of this. I like the hobby just fine the way it is. People interested in our hobby will find us. Most model railroad hobbyist do not relate to our hobby and they have no reason to. They are very different hobbies.

It is not my job to grow the hobby. Go talk to miniature manufactures and other wargame related companies. They are the ones who should be trying to grow the hobby.

I'd like to respond to the complaint about 'growing the hobby.' Whether we realize it or not, the manufacturers who provide us with all these cool figures and terrain benefit when their customer base (profit) increases. We benefit in turn by seeing them prosper so that they can continue to meet our wargaming needs.

I don't think it is such a stretch to consider the similarities. Both hobbies involve grown men obsessing about miniatures on tables, and spending ridiculous sums of money on their tabletop hobby. Isn't that enough to cross the great big divide?

(c) The hobbies and people in them are different. I participate in both and very few model railroaders are interested in history, military or gaming. Model railroaders don't even play railway games.

From a retail perspective they are different too. Model railroaders spend a lot more than wargamers do, and get a lot more value for their money. Model railroading is a multi-billion dollar industry, wargaming is a fraction of the size.

If anything the wargaming hobby has moved away from the technical and realism into the fantastic and packaged (often toy) products. Model railroading has gone the other way into creative, highly technical and detailed areas.

And I'd like to respond to 'thehawk': the model railroaders that I hang around must be a different sort than those you hang around. The model railroaders that I know are very interested in history, albeit the history not of military conflict but of technical advancement and commercial growth. They know when a certain innovative locomotive was developed, and when a railroad reached a milestone (literally and/or figuratively) in its expansion (or collapse!) They want their model railroads to fit into a specific time and place. Some of them are interested enough to ask if a given piece of military equipment would fit in the time frame of their model railroad. And of course, some not, too.

As to train gamers, there are at least two ways to look at it. (1) Yes, there are train games, usually board games such as Rail Baron, 1830, Empire Builder, and Ticket to Ride, to name a few. Also there are computer-based train games like Railroad Tycoon. (2) Games can be played with the model trains themselves, though I doubt many model railroaders think of it in those terms. They call it an "operating session". It's not the same as "watching the trains run round and round." The participants, "operators," are assigned roles of dispatcher, yard masters, and conductors/engineers; and must follow a plan of action to run the railroad in a realistic manner. But neither is it a scripted reenactment, because the participants have tasks to perform and decisions to make to accomplish both individual and group goals. It might be more accurate to call it a cooperative game rather than a competitive one.

Some of us play games about trains, and some of us play games with our trains, and some even do both.

Perry

Model train guys very often will not even associate with those in their hobby that have a different scale, getting them to do wargaming is not a good prospect.

I get tired of this. I like the hobby just fine the way it is. People interested in our hobby will find us. Most model railroad hobbyist do not relate to our hobby and they have no reason to. They are very different hobbies.

It is not my job to grow the hobby. Go talk to miniature manufactures and other wargame related companies. They are the ones who should be trying to grow the hobby.

Completely disagree. If Wargaming is a solitary hobby for you or you don't care if it continues then your perspective makes sense. However if you enjoy the hobby with others, then wargaming -like any hobby- requires that it's enthusiasts do a bit of footwork to bring in new participants.

Hobby companies do their part, but it's personal connections that really bring folks into the hobby and sustain their involvement. Very few people will find the hobby if they don't know it exists and very few will continue in it if they don't meet likeminded participants.

Putting up a wargame display at a train show or other multi-hobby exhibition is a great way to put the hobby in front of those who might otherwise not come in contact with it. Hobby nights and public libraries and other public exhibitions are great chances for exposure as well.

As for the Model Railoader connection. Some railroaders might become wargamers, but the real value is in having an additional connection to the public.

Love their terrain, hate their figures

I could see doing both – but as noted different perspectives on things