"VDV vs Swedes, what tanks for VDV?" Topic

OK, so the most likely attacker for the Swedes is a VDV force.

I see lots of BMDs in the force, but would it really be just ASU-85s and the ATGM sections? Not even T55s?

Hard to airland T-55s….

Besides, the VDV are so hard they don't need tanks:)

bmd's & asu 85's really

Yup, the T-55s come with the follow on forces, that will hopefully be able to relieve the VDV (who are a relatively "light" target).

For a tank adversary you could use soviet marines, with BTR-60s and T-55s. Or Motor rifle regiments, looking pretty much like the ones in Germany if a little poorer on high tech.
An interesting version is the type north MRRs who use MTLBv's instead of BMPs and GT-T instead of BTR's (I would use QRF AT-T who look close enough of whats available). They would use T-55s and PT-76s for tanks until mid/late 80's when they got the T-80.

If the Soviet follow-on forces are attacking from the Leningrad Front (i.e. the Norwegian/Finnish Border region) they'd have large quantities of older kit such as T-55 (and T-62 perhaps?), which was apparently better able to cope with the cold. As has been said, they also had a lot of MT-LB and MT-LBu in lieu of BMP and GT-T in lieu of BTR-60.

However, if they were attacking across the Baltic from the Baltic Front, you could expect more modern equipment such as T-72, BMP, etc. Both the Leningrad and Baltic Military Districts (which became 'Fronts' in wartime) had Guards Air Assault Divisions in addition to the usual Front Independent Air Assault Brigade and Army Independent Air Assault Battalions. That's a lot of airborne… Though could they find enough air transport to lift it…?

The Polish 6th Airborne and 7th Marine Divisions were also slated to support the Soviet Baltic Front (the remainder of Polish Forces went to Northern Front – most likely to go into Schleswig-Holstein). The Polish Airborne had ASU-85s until the 1970s, but the 'division' was then reduced to effectively brigade strength (3 Parachute Battalions – no BMDs) and the ASUs were disbanded.

The Polish Marines were also reduced in strength at the same time, though not as severely. They were reduced to three weak 'regiments' (organised as very strong battalions, each with five rifle companies and an amphibious tank (PT-76) company). Transport was mainly TOPAS-2AP tracked APCs (like a BTR-50 PB, with a high-angle 14.5mm turret – QRF do the model).

The Polish Marine Division also included a Marine Tank Battalion (4x Companies of T-55), a Marine Engineer Battalion and a Marine Recce Battalion with a mixture of softskin and BRDM-1 patrols, plus other support elements.

Both the Leningrad and Baltic Fronts had an Independent Naval Infantry Brigade and both were stronger than usual, with five Naval Infantry Battalions apiece instead of the usual three. Each Brigade also had a Naval Tank Battalion (3x companies of T-55), Amphibious Tank Battalion (3x companies of PT-76) an Anti-Tank Battalion (3x companies of BRDM-mounted AT-3 or AT-5) and other support elements.

Note that Soviet Naval and Polish Marine T-55 Battalions both included three OT-55 flamethrower tanks in each company. I'm not sure if these were parcelled out one per tank platoon or retained as a separate flamethrower platoon.

A T-12 anti tank gun will upset your day, I believe they used those

I don't think the VDV used MT-12, though I may well be wrong. Their usual gun was the SD-44 85mm gun (D-44 with a donkey-engine for motoring it around), supplemented by BRDM-mounted ATGMs.

Im pretty sure that any paradrop would be quickly followed up by land forces to support them. Quite likely by Soviet Marines in the case of Norway!

However it was all BMD's and ASU-85's supported by some airborne ready trucks, field guns, Zsu-23-2's.

The 2S9 starts to replace the ASU85 from 1984.

Cheers Gennorm,

No two sources seem to agree on where 2S9 Nona goes in the Soviet orbat! :)

I agree Jemima, amazing how many grey areas there still are. I would allow it as an option.

Indeed. Circa late 1980s there was a lot of talk of them replacing conventional mortars (and Vasileks) in BMP Motor Rifle Regiments, but that seems to have been bollox in retrospect.

Which reminds me AA… Are you likely to be doing any BMD variants such as BMD-U, BTR-D and the 2S9 Nona?

Yea, getting the Marines to hook up and relieve, or reinforce the airborne troops, seems likely, depending upon the landing areas.

Of course, an overland drive by the Soviets/Russians could be very likely as well, assuming the airdrops to the rear of the defenders are to distract them, and compromise their defense line(s) a bit.

I ran across one source mentioning T-72s as a possibility for the Marines, after the T-55s, which is good enough for me. Sorry, can't recall where now.

I think the PT-76s and T-55s were the primary tanks though, due to weight issues for their landing craft.

Wish someone would produce the PBV-302 in 1/144th scale.

IIRC, work is being done on the 1/100th one, by QRF.

Finns have some T-55s.

In this thread I've just discovered as many new AFVs that I didn't know about as I did. Bravo! Looks like I'll have to get Sov paras as well as marines to battle my Swedish guys.

Thanks to all.

Pbv302 is done. M114 is done. Looking at the IKV91 now.

Think the rest we already do.

It's possible on on the BTR-D , which would then generally open the door for the others.

Problem is sales and costs . Whilst very similar it's actuall a longer hull, new turret and extra wheel in the tracks. So full new model cost wise.

As for the marines MBT , I'm focussing on doing the T55 -AMV. Which is very cool!
Keith

very flat ones

Wow, that was fast, Geoff, especially on the US Armored Cav model!!!

Any idea on the release dates for the M114 and the PBV302, as well as your S-Tank?

No T-62's in type north MRRs, it was due to ground pressure and over snow ability that they primarily kept with the T-55/PT-76 combo until the T-80 wich also has tremendous cross country abilities.

Depending on the general war scenario and the priority of any attack on the nordic countries it is also possible to imagine a build up to war attacking with heavier units than those stationed around the Leningrad TVD. This would probably mostly be limited if the Soviets would want to strike at NATO at the same time or if they would limit themselves to a war against the neutrals and hope for a quick victory.

I believe the OT-55s would be parceled out to the different platoons, but would probably depend on mission. Can't remeber at all where I read about them though. Probably some 90's Zaloga, might be better intel available now.

Geoff, happy to hear the 302 is done! Would love a bunch together with S-tanks!

We had some problems with the way the tracks locate as they were done with tabs and slots (which shrink at different rates)

No fixed dates; a lot of it depends how busy Chas is with orders, photos, replacing worn moulds, etc

Sorry to hear that.

Please let us know when they become available.

Oooh, VDV and Naval Infantry versus S-Tanks and Centurions. Gotta figure out a method of whitewash that I like…

Thanks, guys, really appreciate it!

AA, I'd love it if you make the 2S9! I will need one BMD-1K, and three BTR-Ds. And somewhere between 15 and 30 BMDs. Maybe 6 ASU-85s. Lots of BTR-60s for the Naval Infantry.

Krieger,
Have you got a good source for the northern MRRs?

Gennorm, not really, sorry.
Mostly "Old Foxes" speaking on Swedish forums.
The closest and best source I've found is the ww2.dk/new/newindex.htm site.

An example of a type north Motor Rifle Division is the 54. MRD based out of Alakurtti:
link
The total inventory is from 1990s CFE treaty, and only logs armored vehicles. Hence not enough vehicles logged for 221 Guards MRR or 251 MRR. 281 MRR has 125 MT-LBs logged (Extremely probable to be MT-LBV with wider tracks)

As you can see, the MRRs still have PT-76s in their tank companies while the Tank battalion has switched out their T-55s for T-80s by 1990. Artillery is drawn D-30s rather than self-propelled 2S1 and 2S3.

Thanks Krieger. Logical deductions that I can't fault. Interesting links. I'm particularly intrigued by all of those MTLBs and the 2S9s in the Naval Infantry brigades.

Wossat?! 2S9s in Naval Infantry Brigades?! Nooooooo!!!!! The only place I've not found them listed now is in anti-aircraft units… ;)

Thanks Krieger, great stuff!

I hate to ruin your day but
ww2.dk/new/navy/175obrmp.htm

Yes but what's the source for that listing?

18 of them eh? That suggests either an (unlisted) artillery battalion or that they were dished out as 6-tube mortar batteries to the three infantry battalions.

I've asked the site's owner for more info.

His listings start here: ww2.dk/new/newindex.htm

He appears to be Danish.

JF – take a look at this one too: ww2.dk/new/vdv/98gvvdd.htm

He replied quickly:

"The source for the equipment holdings are the two following books:

"Ñîâåòñêèå Ñóõîïóòíûå âîéñêà â ïîñëåäíèé ãîä Ñîþçà ÑÑÐ" by A.G. Lenskiy and M.M. Tsybin, Sankt Petersburg 2001, 294 pages. Soviet ground forces in the last year of the USSR. Soviet order of battle 19.11.90, based on the first CFE treaty data exchange.
"Àðìèÿ îòå÷åñòâà: íà÷àëî XXI âåêà, ÷àñòü 1-2" by A.G. Lenskiy and M.M. Tsybin, Sankt Petersburg 2005 & 2007, 198 + 170 pages. Army of the fatherland – the beginning of the 21st century, part 1-2. Russian order of battle 1.1.2000, based on the CFE treaty data exhange."

I brought a few books back from Russia. They were actually based on Janes data :-D (Not saying that those two are).

Can you copy and paste the cyrillic?

I tried but it didn't paste properly. I don't know if it's my phone or TMP that's the problem. I'll try a different platform later in case it's the former.

Jemima: My intel on mortars in soviet naval infantry is that each battalion had a mortar platoon.

Geoff: Sources are on the site: ww2.dk/new/army/sources.htm as they seem to refer to the CFE-treaty it should be -relatively- accurate, eventhough a lot happened before taking stock of the inventory. (Such as moving T-80s to flank regions and moving lots of tank behind the Urals, since the treaty was formed to lessen the pressure on the central front and only applied to Conventional Forces in Europe) Due to the fact that the navy initally wasn't included I also believe a couple of Motor rifle divisions in the Baltic region got classified as "coastal defence" or some such.

The Swedish military was always most concerned about the 76th Airborne Division based in Pskov when it came to VDV, often figuring in different exercises. ww2.dk/new/vdv/76gvvdd.htm

Thanks for the expected opposition TO&E, Krieger!

Excellent job.

Post-Cold War research has shown that after the 1960's the Soviets dropped plans for a full scale invasion of Sweden and rather focused on a strategy of containment and encirclement in the event of war with NATO. The only parts of Sweden that were still tageted for invasion in some battle plans were the costal parts of Skåne (Southernmost Sweden) and a section of Northern Sweden. (The Kalix-Boden area and the roads to Norway).

In the north Swedish armour would have been represented by the two independet "Upper Norrland armoured battalions" (2 tank companies (each with 4 tank platoons and a mech. platoon with Pbv 302), 1 "Norrland Rifle" company (Bandvagn 206), 1 artillery company and 1 staff/supply company. Main enemy would be flank detachments from "Northern" motor rifle divisions and heli landed air assault troops. (Main role of the armoured battalions were counter-attacks and rapid reaction reserve)

Skåne held the largest concentration of Swedish armour as 2/3 regular armoured brigades were assigned to the Southern military district.
PB 7, the Malmö brigade, PB 8, the Göinge brigade and PB 26, the Kristianstad brigade. (PB, short for PansarBrigad i.e armoured brigade) PB 7 & 8 was equipped with Strv 103/S-tank while PB 26 had Centurion. There was also 3 independent mechanized battalions which were organised in the Souther military district during the 80's and up to 1987 there was also two tank companies assigned to one of the divisions with costal defence as it's main mission.

Swedish Centurions were the Mk V. (Strv 102) and MK X. (Strv 101), in the 80's the Centurions went through an upgrade program wich included modern fire control, laser range finder and thermal slevee for the gun. The turret itself was rebuilt with new parts to improve gun aim and stabilisation. The older Strv 102 (Mk Vs) recieved addon armor to give them the same level of protection as the Mk. X and all Centurions were fitted with Reactive armour. The tanks were also fitted with "Lyran" 71mm mortars for firing illumination rounds. The Centurions assigned to PB 26 also got new engines and gear boxes and were designated "Strv 104" to avoid misstakes with spare parts and maintaince.

The expected enemy for the Skåne brigades were airborne troops, naval infantry and follow on waves of ordinary Motor Rifle troops. Research has revealed that the Poles were heavily involved in the plans for securing the Danish straits and in this they could be supported by VDV, the Baltic fleets naval infantry and troops from the Baltic Front. (All depending on the actual operations plan to be carried out).
Part of Polish map showing planned invasion of Sweden and Denmark:

VDV vs Swedish armour is an interesting challenge to wargame , VDV units have a lot of firepower and good mobility as long as they don't run out of gas but are rather fragile as even the 20mm AC on the Pbv 302 can penetrate it's armour. A furter possible problem is the ability of Soviet ATGMs to defeat the "fence" used by the S-tank as well as the reactive armour on the Centurions.

Brilliant info again.

That's excellent info, Daniel.

Thank you for sharing it.

Do you know what type of tanks the Swedes had in the north?

Thank you, during the 1980's the Swedish tank in the north was the B version of the S-tank which was upgraded to the C version in the mid-late 1980's. (Not sure when the Upper Norrland battalions got their improved S-tanks, first delivery of the Strv 103C to units was in 1986 with the last 103Bs being rebuilt and returned to the army in 1988.)

Other armour in the north was the Ikv 91 tank destroyer (basicly a light tank), one company each in the Norrland brigades which made up the bulk of the Swedish field force.

Just those two independent tank battalions he mentioned. So Strv 103s in the 80's.

They were typicaly to be held in reserves and be kept for the "defeat" part of "meet-stop-defeat" plan of defense.

At least one of the two had a primary objective during that time to be prepared to engage airlandings in an area called "the square" consisting of the area between Luleå, Boden, Piteå and Älvsbyn.
The other would probably join a Norrland Brigade (NB19 is often mentioned) and be prepared to defend against the enemy on the western/southern bank on one of the several large rivers crossing the countryside, and be prepared to go over on the offensive when the enemy is beat.

I've been looking in vain for my old notes from the lectures I got on the northern MRR and MRD as a young Swedish officer at the end of the Cold War. What I do remember is pretty close to what can be seen in the link posted by Krieger. At the time the basic assumption was that one MRR in each division was equipped with MT-LB while the other two had unarmoured GT-T carriers with trailers. The fact that each MRR in the 54. MRD link only had a small number of MT-LB in 1990 suggests that some divisions relied entirely on the GT-T.

The 1990 CFE numbers from the Leningrad and Baltic military districts did in not show equipment that was typical for the 80's, there was a lot of modern equipment shifted there in 89-90 as older tanks were hastily replaced with T-80s previously used in Germany. As late as 1987-88 the main tank was upgraded T-55s (with some exceptions, the 45th Guards Motor Rifle division was know to have some T-80s but got a huge number of them in 1990 compared to earlier reports.

We were sitting right near Finnish border ca.150 km from Leningrad.Our artillery division had GTT for towing of D-30 and Grad rocket launchers.
Couple of MTLB-V we had were command/radio versions. Our neighbours (MRD) had MTLB/BMP as well as T-55.
In any case GTT was not supposed to appear on frontlines, as it is basically a huge diesel tank on tracks…

That is interesting info, Barin1.

Thanks for sharing.

Any idea on the ratio of MTLBs to BMPS in the neighboring MRD?

Not sure…our units were so called "cadre" divisions, i.e ca. 50 officers and 60 soldiers each, and each 6 months reservists were enlisted and converting our small numbers into full scale ready to fight units.
Most of the time we were deployed behind MRD, so I'm afraid I haven't seen much of them in their deployed state. On day-to-day training I've seen both MTLB and BMP, on a side note GTT was much better for battling high snow we had there.I think I've seen a bit of stuff on them on social networks, will check when I'm at home PC

Ah, tough luck. Nothing on the photos, too. Making pics of any military equipment was prohibited, so I've found our GTT as it was also a civilian truck, and some MTLB, no tanks or BMP's…

The GT-T seems tremendous at cross country mobility and low ground pressure, necessary due to the terrain. Roads were few and easily cut off. At many places roads were especially prepared for this: youtu.be/2CTxcAaQ5cI
(Sorry for Swedish audio, but the pictures at around 1:10 should speak for themselves)

Sure it wasn't a combat vehicle and you wouldn't want to get caught in them, leading to a slower momentum in the north than on the German plains. But it could fairly easily (if not fuel efficiently) move in terrain and swim over the many rather wide rivers.

The BMP however wasn't good at all in deep snow, something the swedish military themselves forgot when they bought BMP-1s, initally to equip the northernmost forces. Tests soon relegated them to units in central Sweden instead.

Depending on build up etc, it is of course possible to divert more heavily equipped units to the area, especially if Finland remains neutral and gives transit rights. The amount of larger roads in the north however limits the attacker to one or two divisions attacking at a time though. Logistics becomes a real problem without roads. even if units themselves can bypass the mires, it costs more fuel and most of the logistics is wheeled rather than tracked. Further decreasing the rate of movement.

Would love more insight from you Barin1, on your perceived capabilities etc.

We had very good officers, 95% with experience in Afghanistan, D-30 ( M-30 in 1985) and BM's, trained reservists (ok, they were not too happy joining us too often, but refusal was not an option), MRD had higher % of recruits from Asian republics of SU, but they would have melted in 800+ reservists. Full volley of 60+ howitzers and 40+ rocket launchers is nasty. I didn't want to be on receiving end of it (but several times when I was in recon unit I had all these shells flying over my head…)
MRD had a unit of anti-tank 100mm Rapira guns, and several units of 85 mm mortars.

That's our former place:

link

and some pics to get a feeling of it…

vk.com/album-24215263_128336131