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Action Log

13 Nov 2015 11:48 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from Modern Discussion (1946 to 2005) board
  • Crossposted to Modern What-If board


3,116 hits since 13 Nov 2015
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 

The last word on TMP13 Nov 2015 11:14 a.m. PST

Is it regarded as a ultramodern certainty that the USA will not be subjected to a hostile amphibious landing on its West Coast and, if it were, would it be able to defend and defeat the attacker? Nuclear option not being used.

I am working on a fictions scenario where the Chinese PLA and PLAN embark on such an attack, maybe to secure land west of the Rockies.

All useful comments welcome.

McKinstry Fezian13 Nov 2015 11:29 a.m. PST

The PLAN does not remotely have the seaborne lift, basing, logistics infrastructure or most importantly, national interest for anything like that.

Personal logo Chalfant Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 11:46 a.m. PST

There is absolutely no way the PLA or PLA(N) can support an amphibious operation against the West Coast. In a hundred years, who knows…. but its going to be quite some time before anyone can defeat the USN so completely that they could invade the US across the Pacific (or Atlantic for that matter).

Win small engagements…. certainly. Sink ships… certainly. Get close enough to launch missiles at the coast…. certainly. Clear the Pacific to allow a major amphibious force to land in California… currently impossible.

You would need a major disaster, or technological change, to occur.

On the other hand, The PLA and PLA(N) have plenty of areas much closer to home that they might have the resources to invade.

Chalfant

Prince Rupert of the Rhine13 Nov 2015 11:55 a.m. PST

Swap the PLA for North Koreans and the scenario sounds a bit like this

picture

FWIW I would have thought the PLA would have to find away to neutralise the US Naval assets without a full battle (which they'd lose IMO) before the invasion could take place. Sabotage (maybe some type of EMP) or a surprise nuclear/chemical strike on naval facilities and ships in dock to clear the way for an invasion.

The last word on TMP13 Nov 2015 12:08 p.m. PST

The PLAN scenario is just my little fancy …which you may have just sunk deep in the beautiful briny for me! Thanks. wink

The interest here really is finding out the state of US coastal defences and forces in recent years and if they were expected to repel an amphibious landing – most likely a Soviet attack. I wonder if the likelihood of an attack was considered so remote, so unlikely, that there were NO coastal defences/forces deployed there. In which case a possible fictional attack might have succeeded.

boy wundyr x Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse13 Nov 2015 12:23 p.m. PST

I have a sci-fi/post-apoc setting with Chinese mechs in North America, and to "justify" (it's still not a plausible idea) how that could happen, I postulate that China organizes a boat people humanitarian crisis that ties up and distracts the military enough to let the invasion force through. Basically, their agents arrange for thousands upon thousands of people (fleeing from was and environmental degradation/starvation) to get ahold of ships and head to the US and Canada. Sort of like Dunkirk from everywhere.

Once there, the serious war begins, and in the next century the Chinese forces never get entirely dislodged, and we move into the PA-like era (sort of like Battletech).

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 12:25 p.m. PST

Don't let the others poopoo your idea, TLLDOB. The beauty of fiction is that "anything is possible." It doesn't have to reflect current realities if you approach it from a What-If angle. Do you think Harry Turtledove or John Birmingham worry about whether something is "possible" in their alternate universes? I should think not.

There are many scenarios that could envision a foreign invasion of our shores. The US could be weakened by an EMP attack, or internal civil unrest and even outright civil war. What if China eclipsed the US as the No. 1 superpower?

As Prince Rupert alluded to, 'Red Dawn' is one such scenario. The classic Risk-like board game "Fortress America" is yet another example, even though it also includes pan-European and S. American invaders.

Personal logo Mardaddy Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 12:38 p.m. PST

The remake of Red Dawn WAS going be Chinese until MGM realized it would alienate and possibly PO their Chinese market.

The series Jericho had as its premise an almost coup, timed strikes at certain targets from within by the connected and powerful opportunists trying to usurp the "then" US government, but instead causing the country to fracture and regions to circle their own wagons for stability.

Personal logo aegiscg47 Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 12:45 p.m. PST

I seem to recall back in the 80s seeing some plans about how to respond to an invasion up through Mexico that involved Nicaragua, Cuba, and Russian forces at the height of the Cold War. We played a lot of modern micro-armor back then and were always interested in using actual military maps for campaigns. One of our members was in the National Guard and brought along several, with one being the border area. Some of the associated charts on the maps had mobilization areas and lines of defense, which were pretty interesting. They weren't top secret (as far as I knew) and there were quite a few of these kinds of things. One of our favorite campaigns that we got maps for was set in Austria, which I implied that the U.S. Army had plans developed for either a counterattack into Austria or a possible move into if Warsaw Pact forces had only invaded there (similar to Czechoslovakia).

As far as the Chinese ever launching an amphibious invasion of the U.S., I don't think that is very practical. They lack sealift capacity, don't have the logistics infrastructure, and their army isn't as large as a lot of people think as they have been doing a major reorganization. Wresting control of the Pacific from the U.S. and moving convoys across the ocean would be a formidable task, if not outright impossible.

GeoffQRF13 Nov 2015 12:48 p.m. PST

The remake of Red Dawn WAS going be Chinese until MGM realized it would alienate and possibly PO their Chinese market.

Sadly for the concept, China was unlikely but potentially feasible, whereas Nork Korea was kinda fantasy :-)

vtsaogames In the TMP Dawghouse13 Nov 2015 1:05 p.m. PST

It's them Canadians you have to watch out for, I tell ya. They'll take over and make us eat poutine.

Mako11 Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 1:06 p.m. PST

They might be able to take over a small, uninhabited island in the Aleutians, but once we, and/or the locals found out, they'd be doomed.

They might be able to take over part of Long Beach harbor for a while, if they filled some container ships up with troops, but again, it would be a short-lived scenario in the grand scheme of things.

There are easier ways to neutralize a sea port.

Zargon Inactive Member13 Nov 2015 1:09 p.m. PST

1.They going to force the US troops to max out their cards at
Walmart :)
2. They're going to build new islands all the way across the
Pacific and take a short ferry ride into San Francisco harbor :)

So if my ideas ar wacky but feasible why not yours.
Cheers happy gaming.

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse13 Nov 2015 1:13 p.m. PST

They might be able to take over part of Long Beach harbor for a while, if they filled some container ships up with troops, but again, it would be a short-lived scenario in the grand scheme of things.

How about if they pulled a Bane?

With their open access to west coast ports, plus lax security plus involvement with criminal gangs in addition to their own covert plants, what happens when "they" visit a major TV studio in Hollywood, have them contact and link to other news sources for the news exclusive:

"We have planted X number of nuclear weapons in the following cities:
1
2
3
4
5
…etc.

ANY movement against our forces, or our homeland will result in an immediate and coordinated detonation of all of them.

Effective immediately, the nation of Diskantbirheal has claimed and annexed the following states:
a
b
c
d
…etc.
and freed the occupants from the oppressive domination by the illegal regime in Washington D.C.. They will now thrive and prosper under the benevolent and merciful guidance of "He who shoe polishes his bad haircut" may Almonds bless his name…

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 1:14 p.m. PST

I agree that it seems impossible for the PLA to launch an attack on the US West Coast

Mind you, on May 1st 1940 it was considered impossible for the Germans to beat the French in two months – but by July 1st the French were out of the war

Pizzagrenadier13 Nov 2015 1:22 p.m. PST

Why go with the US? If there's going to be a near peer war down the road it will more likely be PLA vs Russia. They rub elbows in enough places and are resource hungry enough, and probably crazy enough, to fight each other.

Zhenbao Island and some other border problems dating back to 1969 were agreed upon as recently as 2008.

Both Putin and the PRC have a lot to lose in a war against the US (economics especially), whereas they have much less to lose against each other.

Dragon vs Bear has a better ring to it anyway.

skippy0001 Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 1:51 p.m. PST

No, do it.

Postulate a Pan-Asian Co-Prosperity League. Use EVERY Asian country's forces and economics. Crank out warships and modern versions of Liberty Ships. Pykret Carriers in the Northern Pacific.
Use that Pacific Tunnel they've been digging since the early sixties for Special Forces.
Build submersible aircraft carriers that launch flying submarines.
EMP the US just before the invasion.
Pick your beaches carefully-must be near adequate ports. Any ideas, people?
Have a great Order of Battle-Manchu's Marauders Para-Marines etc.
A great mix of afv's, quality of infantry, odd aircraft for support(747's Cruise Missile Bombardment Auxilliaries)
Personalize the Leaders and Heroes, do not be Politically Correct.
It'll be fun. The Hollywood Action Heroic Militia Brigade Group are manning the beach defenses as I type.

TMPWargamerabbit13 Nov 2015 2:53 p.m. PST

SPI 'Invasion America' revisited….

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 4:25 p.m. PST

In my scenario, (which is really part of the Second US Civil War) the invasion is facilitated by the state government of California, which breaks away from the US and welcomes it's commie overlords with open arms. Initial entry is through cruise ships, cargo ships and commercial aircraft, so there is no fighting on the beach). North California will not be part of the treason. Elements of the California National Guard that are still loyal to the Union will meet up the Nevada Nation Guard and fight with that state's defense forces. The Western and Plains states will fight the PLA and Red Cali. Texas will break away and become a republic. The Native Americans are a wild card. Mexico is staging military forces near the southern border of the Republic of Texas ..

Noble71313 Nov 2015 7:02 p.m. PST

The interest here really is finding out the state of US coastal defences and forces in recent years and if they were expected to repel an amphibious landing most likely a Soviet attack. I wonder if the likelihood of an attack was considered so remote, so unlikely, that there were NO coastal defences/forces deployed there. In which case a possible fictional attack might have succeeded.

Yes, I would say that the US has pretty much *NO* fortifications, OPLANs, or even training standards for conducting coastal defense against a peer competitor. Notice how the US has no ground-based, redeployable, anti-ship cruise missile launchers? Hell, we don't even really use our Patriots for domestic airspace defense. We pretty much rely entirely on the Navy, Air Force, and Air National Guard to kill everything before boots hit the ground. Which is fine for us because our Navy and Air Force are so overwhelming and capable….for now.

You could still build an invasion scenario if you handwave a few things. It's possible that after a long period of conflict in the Pacific that the US Navy and Air Force have been sufficiently attrited that a landing wouldn't be an outright slaughter of the amphibious ships. Perhaps the Navy suffered a Midway-style defeat trying to protect Hawaii? Also, let's assume a certain amount of sluggishness and ineptitude at the Department of Defense that causes the US Army to not mobilize/balloon in size at the mere threat of a continental invasion.

If the Chinese have already occupied Hawaii and built it up as a logistics hub, that helps too. Since the two major West Coast concentrations of military power are the Seattle area and the San Diego area, you will have to attack both. I would invade Seattle after staging at Canada's Graham Island, but you might have to sail to San Diego all the way from Hawaii.

Probably want to look at Operation Overlord and Operation Olympic/Downfall for an idea of force requirements. The US was planning to hit Kyushu with 14 divisions. Also look at both Stalingrad and Operation Phantom Fury for the sort of urban force concentrations you might need.

Fallujah is ~25km^2 and required 6 American assault battalions (with frontages of ~500-750 meters) plus 4+ follow-on Iraqi battalions, as well as isolation elements on the city flanks of several more battalions. The bulk of the fighting against 3,000 irregulars took 10 days.

To take Seattle you could land west of Olympia, and attack along an Olympia -> Joint Base Lewis-McChord (a major military installation) -> Tacoma -> Seattle axis. Olympia alone looks close to 100km^2 on Google Maps. 5km frontage --> 10 battalions abrest --> roughly 1 division in the initial assault echelon. Your left flank is the water ways. Maybe have a 2nd (preferably armored) division advance roughly parallel along Washington State Route 507. You'll be up against 2 Stryker Brigades, a Ranger battalion, an SF Group, and probably the Washington National Guard's 81st BCT, currently converting from an armored to a Stryker BCT. So roughly a division's worth of fairly-light but capable defenders. If you can fix the defenders at Olympia/JB Lewis-McChord, cut them off from Tacoma, and defeat them in detail, securing Tacoma and Seattle should be MUCH easier. I'd recommend 3-4 divisions total on the attack. Which is pretty much all of China's current amphibious strength:

1st, 86th, 123rd, and 124th Amphibious Mechanized Infantry Divisions

plus the 2 Marine brigades.

So…it's kinda feasible. If the Chinese Navy's blue-water amphibious and logistical capabilities are 10x what they are now. Oh, and you'll need to put together a similar analysis for the San Diego attack, which, IMO, is an even more complex operational scenario, and will require you to invent sufficient Chinese land forces out of thin air. But at least you have a rough OOB and a scheme of maneuver now.


Some details on China's amphib forces:
link


Fallujah maps (since you will have to do a LOT of urban fighting):
link

link

picture

Oh, and:

maybe to secure land west of the Rockies.

Is that the End State? If so, your Seattle Battlegroup could attack south to Portland. Then they just need to dig in along Interstate-90 (east of Seattle) and Interstate-84 (east of Portland).

The San Diego Battlegroup needs to secure Los Angeles (good luck with THAT!!). After this point you need to either mount another amphibious assault on San Francisco (no decent beaches, I think), or drive north from LA up Interstate-5 (a 500km-long line of supply). After securing San Francisco and Sacramento, import a bunch of People's Armed Police forces as garrison troops and dig in along Interstate-80 (east of Sacramento) and Interstates-8/10/15/40 (Southern California). End State achieved.

Lion in the Stars13 Nov 2015 7:04 p.m. PST

The PLAN barely has the sealift to take the island of Fomosa.

If you postulated a China-centric East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere, that would at least give you enough raw materials and shipyards to make a decent buildup.

It's not like there are any major defenses on the West Coast anymore, no coastal artillery or anything. But you would get to see what A10s could do to a warship.

Mako11 Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2015 7:45 p.m. PST

No real need for them to take offensive action against many of the West Coast's major cities.

Of course, there may be bastions of American loyalists in other areas that are well armed.

advocate14 Nov 2015 3:04 a.m. PST

There was really no way that Seelowe would have worked in WW2, but that hasn't stopped it being an inspiration for many a wargame scenario or campaign, or indeed many works of fiction. Go for it.

Tgunner Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2015 6:53 a.m. PST

Japan once, sort of, mulled over invading Australia in 1942. Actually it was the IJN. They had some ideas about landing troops near the major cities and overrunning the place. After all, they were running wild over the the Indies, Malay, and the Philippines. So why not?

The Japanese Army was appalled. At the time they had a massive army of over 40 divisions- well over a million men under arms and they were appalled. Australia is a continent, albeit a small one. That meant moving troops over huge areas and needing to occupy a hostile population that numbered in the millions. It was just too much a task for an army that was scattered all over the place with one eye looking over the Russian border. Just pure fantasy really.

I think a Chinese invasion of the US is facing the same reality but far worse. The US is FAR, FAR away from China and has a massive population. Much smaller than China's, but way closer to the battlefields of an invasion. Plus the US has a rather well armed population too…

No pretty.

And that leaves out that the US has an extremely capable Navy, Air Force, and a fair sized Army.

No yeah, not happening.

Now a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, the Philippines, and even Vietnam? Now you have something. And I can see a little "Red Dawn" with Chinese forces attacking and later invading Guam.

link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam

Much more realistic and it could be as much fun. The US is developing Guam to replace our bases on Okinawa which makes Guam a very attractive target for the Chinese. Plus Guam has an American population so there's your "Red Dawn" fun.

The last word on TMP14 Nov 2015 11:27 a.m. PST

Some very interesting replies here. Thanks.

Noble713 and Tgunner, thanks for those links. Very interesting.

I quite liked the idea of the US having to defend a coastline with the PLA and PLAN attacking (there are some great 15mm figures to use) but it seems highly unlikely that mainland USA would be the theatre.

So, perhaps Guam or Hawaii.

Could you foresee a situation where the US Pacific Fleet is 'ambushed' with crippling loss, thus making the USA vulnerable to a follow up attack and landing?

(I'm not giving up just yet)

cwlinsj Inactive Member14 Nov 2015 4:22 p.m. PST

Start with Guam and Hawaii, which China MIGHT be able to attack in the next 10 years.

By the time China will have armed to the point where they can contemplate an invasion of the CONUS, the USA will have gone on a war footing with likelihood of full wartime production.

That war will use different weapons than in the TOEs which exist today.

ScoutJock14 Nov 2015 4:48 p.m. PST

Plus California is number one in firearm sales, ahead of Texas surprisingly so plan for lots of militia and insurgents..

Tgunner Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2015 9:37 a.m. PST

Could you foresee a situation where the US Pacific Fleet is 'ambushed' with crippling loss, thus making the USA vulnerable to a follow up attack and landing?

Not really. It's simple logistics in my mind. We are thousands and thousands of miles away from China. They would need a truly huge army to even have a chance of winning and they would have to move that army across the Pacific, building bases to support that logistics line by the way, and then build a bridgehead and so on and so on. China just doesn't have a capability and won't have it for a long time.

Even THEN you have to remember, the US is a nuclear power! I can't imagine a more juicy target just asking to be nuked more than an invasion fleet with thousands of ships and millions of men. Go look at Overlord as an example of what China would need and remember, Overlord was conducted by an army that had 2-3 years to build up AND it had a VERY convenient, and VERY large, island right next (less than 100 miles away) to the invasion beaches. And you had a very friendly population in France to assist with the invasion. Finally, Overlord's first wave was not much more than 200,000 or so troops and it took a while to get the massive forces needed to sweep the Germans out of Normandy and push them back to Germany.

Honestly, defeating the US Pacific Fleet is the EASY PART. You're only sinking 20-30 ships and maybe a similar number of subs and 1,000 or so planes. It's the Pacific and the necessary logistics to support an army over those huge distances that is the true 800 pound gorilla that makes a Chinese invasion fantasy.

Now maybe in a few decades China might develop the economy and the infrastructure that could make this a possibility. Or maybe the US could collapse or be seriously weakened to the point where China could send forces into the US to secure their interests. Like what happened to them around the turn of the last century. So there's no real US Navy or armed forces any more, maybe some warlords and petty states fighting each other. Then China could send in smallish forces to support its interests.

Anyway, here's two decent books that can help you come up with some ideas that are at least semi-plasuable, if that's what you're looking for.

A US collapse with Chinese intervention is covered in William R. Forstchen's "One Second After". Now that's a scary scenario! The US is terribly crippled by a EMP attack and civilization collapses. I think the US nukes Iran and North Korea but that's it. After a year the US population is badly crippled by hunger, disease, and internecine warfare. China steps in a some point and basically takes over the West Coast. An ugly scenario and a more realistic one IMO

link

link

Although I still wonder how they got away with that. The US still had nukes and did use them. I would think that would give China a reason to pause and think it over very carefully. The US still would have many nukes, at least in the boomers, that could make a Chinese invasion in that scenario a risky thing. Just one boomer could reduce much of China to ashes with too many of its own problems to worry about taking a bite out of the US. Maybe it started as humanitarian aid and escalated to occupation?

No this is a novel that you might like though. The interpersonal stories are very distracting and annoying IMO, but the scenario is interesting. It was written around 15 years ago and postulates China growing massively economically and has the US become very isolationistic. That opens the doors for China to build a massive military and to slowly build an empire without US intervention. After a decade or so of that China is in position to invade the US, but even them it takes a while for China to crush the US's navy and air forces. It's really fantasy, but it's interesting and could help you scenario build:

link

link

(I'm not giving up just yet)

Don't let us stop you! I like your idea but building a logical basis for it is tough. But don't let that keep you from playing it! Get your toys out, paint them up, and have fun.

cwlinsj Inactive Member15 Nov 2015 9:59 a.m. PST

Another reason why I game next-war in Korea.

Some of the most largest and heavily armed forces in the world facing-off along the DMZ. China and USA ready to step-in when the shooting starts. Countries like Japan and Russia probably drawn-in as well.

Probably the only place left where you would see divisional level tank engagements.

Equipment and TOEs will include everything from 1960s-1980s Soviet-era divisions (North Korea), modern Chicom forces, and 1980s to ultra-modern South Koreans and modern US heavy brigades and Marines. Good way to recycle Cold War minis.

GNREP8 Inactive Member15 Nov 2015 2:16 p.m. PST

Maybe its cos I am a Brit still bitter over Yorktown, but I always rooted for the Soviets and Cubans when I watched Red Dawn (original version)
It does make me laugh btw that on the Imdb website page for this film one of the questions is
'How much sex, violence, and profanity are in this movie?'

Its a war film but concerns about violence come 2nd to worries about the process by which we all got to be here – only in the USA!

Artraccoon15 Nov 2015 2:23 p.m. PST

The Chinese might be able to pull off such an invasion within a 8 to 20 year time frame. It does require the U.S. to be in economic or social trouble, and the military doesn't get funded the way it is used to. Perhaps a withdrawn U.S., it's money spent on social programs, and it's population divided and fighting each other. The Chinese on the other hand, having trouble economically because of disruptions in the U.S. market, begin a desperate plan to "repossess" and introduce "peace keepers". A five year program to build sealift begins, using the same methods used to build container ships. Within a short time these ships are ready, and only the very thin blue line of the U.S. Navy, with worn, undermanned, under maintained, ships and aircraft standing in the way. After a massive naval battle, the USN and most of the PLAN combat fleets are destroyed…but the invasion fleet moves on to the West Coast.

Fantastic, maybe. But a lot of fantastic things have happened in history, and using the Western slow azz procurement standards as model may not apply.

cwlinsj Inactive Member15 Nov 2015 2:38 p.m. PST

If China was to commit resources towards invasion, they'd go for Africa and the Middle East first. Control the resources, deny your enemy and prepare for the next battle.

If China wanted to come after the USA and keep territory, they'd come up through Mexico. Building up forces in South, Central America and Mexico would be a safer bet. Many of those countries would welcome striking against the Estado Unidos.

Coming over the Pacific would need decades of preparation, and as I've already said, allow the US time to go on a war footing and prepare. While most consumer manufacturing went to China, the USA never gave-up its aircraft, armaments, missiles and warship manufacturing capabilities.

Tgunner Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2015 6:07 p.m. PST

Maybe its cos I am a Brit still bitter over Yorktown, but I always rooted for the Soviets and Cubans when I watched Red Dawn (original version)

Oddly enough I find myself doing the same in Zulu Dawn, rooting for the Zulus that is! LOL!

Lion in the Stars15 Nov 2015 8:49 p.m. PST

Could you foresee a situation where the US Pacific Fleet is 'ambushed' with crippling loss, thus making the USA vulnerable to a follow up attack and landing?

(I'm not giving up just yet)


Not as easy as the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor.

The US only home-ports a couple carriers in Pearl these days, the others are in San Diego, Seattle, and Japan. One in three carrier groups is always at sea, and if you count the workups it's closer to two of three carriers are out of their home ports at all times. So you'd have to chase down and destroy 4 carriers at sea, and somehow destroy two others in shipyard. Without using nukes.

At the same time, you would need to destroy about 20 fast-attack submarines at sea (and 10 in port), without threatening the SSBNs. If you don't get the subs, there will be a new mural at Pearl Harbor, showing all the Chinese-flagged ships destroyed by US Subs. And that mural would be an ocean of red flags (just like the existing mural is an ocean of Japanese flags).

The last word on TMP16 Nov 2015 8:42 a.m. PST

I very much appreciate your replies guys, so thanks.

Tgunner, a lot of interesting info and links, which I will pursue.

Bit of OP question creep next. I am attracted to a small range of PLA figures currently available in various scales which I want to pit against US forces, ideally against a well dug in American defensive position something similar in strength to the D-Day landing sites. Now I am reconsidering a Korea or Taiwan setting.

Question: when was the last time US forces defended a major defensive position and how successful were they?

Is US defensive strategy actually an offensive strategy? Can they, do they, defend anywhere using infantry and artillery?

I can't think of anything much after Vietnam and Tet.

Thanks

cwlinsj Inactive Member16 Nov 2015 11:40 a.m. PST

I can only think of Khe Sanh in Vietnam as the last large set defensive battle fought by USA. That battle was won through massive artillery and air power. (In fact, South Vietnam finally "lost" in 1975 when the US stopped military support and they ran out of artillery shells to stop NVA advances.)

You are correct to think that US military strategy is to "defend" on somebody else's country. Stop enemies before they can threaten the homeland.

US primary strength since WWII is air superiority. Without that, future conventional battles between USA and other world powers (China) would be evenly matched.

freecloud24 Nov 2015 12:03 a.m. PST

"If China wanted to come after the USA and keep territory, they'd come up through Mexico."

That.

Seaborne attack on Japan which is backed up by US more of an option.

Elenderil29 Nov 2015 8:00 a.m. PST

SPIs 1970s Scenario in Invasion America was set up around resource restrictions and an isolationist US which has withdrawn from the world stage to conserve resources. This has prevented the US from getting too far ahead of the rest of the world. The invasion was from the Pan Asian League, the European Socialist Coalition and the South American Union. The PAL have technology broadly on a par with the US and possibly ahead in some areas. The ESC is also broadly equivalent and the SAU is a generation behind but has larger conscript forces. The US and Canada face a war on three fronts which stretches their forces. Not truly a realistic option but it allowed the game designers to set the stage and pose some interesting challenges.

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP07 Jan 2016 7:02 p.m. PST

Well first off if they did.

Within 1-2 hours most of China's seaboard cities would be gone along with 45%-65% of their population.

Then the Chinese soldiers who landed here would have to deal with the millions of Americans who have weapons and know the land that they are fighting on.

Plus these individuals won't have to worry about supply lines.

So if China put 10,000,000 soldiers into the West Coast of the United States within 2-3 months most of them would be dead or wounded.

Because the combat would be very brutal and the Chinese would be the ones attacking into major cities or terrain that would favor the defender.

Legion 408 Jan 2016 8:45 a.m. PST

And if they parked their tanks and trucks, etc., in certain places in NY, NJ, etc. … They'd find the next morning all their vehicles will have their radios gone and up on blocks missing tires, etc. …

Personal logo Great War Ace Supporting Member of TMP08 Jan 2016 9:11 a.m. PST

"Palestinian Liberation Army"? How did the Chinese enter into this?…

Empires at War08 Jan 2016 10:00 a.m. PST

Perhaps they could plan it to coincide with the overdue super earthquake we are told is going to destroy the west coast. Such an event would surely tie up most of the military resources available in the Pacific and possibly take out many of them particularly those ships stuck in port.

Would they really be that evil though?!!!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian08 Jan 2016 11:20 a.m. PST

"Palestinian Liberation Army"? How did the Chinese enter into this?…

PLA = People's Liberation Army

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa08 Jan 2016 12:02 p.m. PST

What about NATO, or indeed Europe if the treaty's gone, can't see them sitting by, unless you wish to script them out! Granted I think NATO was generally predicated on shipping US forces to Europe rather than vice versa, but SF (who would blend pretty well with European-descended US population for behind the lines operations) and rapid reaction forces would probably get there moderately quickly. Gives the opportunity to diversify forces a bit from wall to wall US equipment and Chinese WARPAC knockoffs and derivatives.

Personally I don't give an armed insurgency in any country that the PLA might choose invade much chance (regardless of the size of the armoury). I would expect them to be extremely ruthless.

Legion 408 Jan 2016 2:26 p.m. PST

So if China put 10,000,000 soldiers into the West Coast of the United States within 2-3 months most of them would be dead or wounded.
Or claim asylum … it's worked for a bunch of guys from the Mid East, etc. …

All they have to do is go to a Sanctuary City. And within a few months they'll have their own take out eateries serving authentic Chinese food !

Ottoathome08 Jan 2016 9:52 p.m. PST

What always amazes me is the "no nukes" component of these things. That makes the "unreality" of the PLA having the lift and support capacity for an invasion a minor departure from reality. Any such invasion would lead within 10 hours to a full nuclear exchange.

mashrewba Inactive Member09 Jan 2016 6:43 a.m. PST

I've recently discovered that there is only so much Chinese food you can eat…

Legion 409 Jan 2016 8:24 a.m. PST

Yeah … but 2 hours later you're hungry again … wink

We have a couple of very good Asian buffets in town. My one friend won't go because he can't control himself. And eats too much ! Then feels sick and complains about it continuously ! huh?

Now that I think of it … that happens wherever we eat ? huh?

Lion in the Stars09 Jan 2016 11:53 a.m. PST

@Otto: part of the reason for keeping nukes off the table is to keep the Chinese in the game. The Chinese don't have many, if any, nukes capable of reaching the US, while the US has about 2/3rds of it's nuclear force that is capable of hitting China without transiting over Russia on the way.

The second reason is that even if the gloves do come off, China has fewer nukes than a single US SSBN.

Dobber Inactive Member16 Jan 2016 11:05 a.m. PST

I'd play it!
In a hyper far fetched scenario;
Excerpts from the diary of Staff Sgt Ricardo Santanna, 2-504th, 82nd Airborne
9 March, 2032
"How Did we get to this point? Maybe we should have paid more attention to the rest of the world. Weak, introverted liberal leaders and crushing debt caused us to turn inward. I mean, I like free universal energy as much as the next guy, but since when was it a good idea to dismantle our ICBM's and use their warheads to make power plants? the world isn't a safe place. Did it start 16 years ago when they marched north and took the gas and oil fields from Russia? Putin sure didn't live up to all the hype. one bungled military operation halfway across a continent and he folded to Chinese pressure. Of course that "reverse lease" for all those submarines that they used to sneak up on us with should have gotten our attention. Or it could have been the Korean Debacle that caused us to turn our backs. God did those Marines fight… But the country just didn't have the stomach for a fight. Did you really expect us to believe that all those armored divisions were Korean? Yeah, I remember that from when I was a kid. "its a local affair" they said. "not our business". and they left the Marines there to die. 1 Marine division fought off 3 Chinese divisions and saved tens of thousands of civilians. they are heroes. why am I writing this? everyone knows the story of the 1st Marines. Of course the Military felt betrayed. That little uprising is really what killed us. after the failed coup the entire military got cut. the politicians didn't trust them anymore. We sure could use some Marines these days, instead of that Bleeped text federal police force. they sure held up, damn bullies. well that and a few other things got us where we are today. Tell you what, for all the Bleeped text we gave those Navy boys, they sure can fight. I can see them now, the sky is thick with red planes and their pilots are giving them hell. more than I can say for that glorified flight club that the air force turned out to be. There are 4 Destroyers in the bay right now, they are duking it out with the reds and trying to give us support fire at the same time. One of them is burning on the stern, looks like they had to run it aground to keep it from sinking. its sitting on a sandbar ablaze, and still shooting the forward gun to support us. Crazy bastards! I guess there is no where to fall back to on a ship… If you could win a modern war on courage alone the Navy would have this. I guess its hard to fight when your ships are 50 years old or more, with no spare parts. Well, now its our turn. the 19th and 40th National Guard divisions have crumbled under the red assault and we have to plug the gap. I hear that we are up against their Marines. Those are the devils that pushed back the Screaming Eagles up in Oregon. If anything should happen to me, please give my cross and dog tags to my wife Maria. we have a baby on the way. its the proudest I've ever felt in my life. Time to go see what these Reds are made of. AIRBORNE!"

The preceding was found on a fallen soldiers body in the wreckage of San Diego. the date and division coincide with the 1st Brigade of the 82nd Airborne's counterattack against the Chinese 2nd Marines and 3rd armored divisions that stabilized the front for the next 3 days. Unfortunately the follow on forces from 1st Armored never made it to support them, and without the support of the heavy brigades, the Chinese 9th armored and 11&27th mechanized divisions overran the Paratroopers after 3 days of desperate fighting and taking over 80% casualties. Their actions allowed the evacuation of that sector to be completed without any further civilian losses. they are credited with saving the lives of over 200,000 women and children. In keeping with the US Government's policy of abolishing ancestral and historical titles and traditions of military units, there are currently no plans to re constitute the 1st Brigade, 82nd Airborne.

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