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"Should the Renaissance boards be renamed." Topic


37 Posts

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Action Log

06 May 2016 9:30 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from TMP Poll Suggestions board
  • Crossposted to Renaissance Discussion board
  • Crossposted to TMP Talk board
  • Crossposted to Renaissance Media board
  • Crossposted to Renaissance Battle Reports board
  • Crossposted to Renaissance Product Reviews board
  • Crossposted to Renaissance Painting Guides board
  • Crossposted to Renaissance Gallery board
  • Crossposted to Renaissance Scenarios board


1,697 hits since 6 Nov 2015
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP06 Nov 2015 12:09 p.m. PST

The Renaissance boards cover warfare from the end of the Medieval period to the start of the 18th Century. The unifying feature of warfare for most of this time was the use of pike and shot in varying combinations.

The actual Renaissance, the artistic and cultural period, began and ended rather earlier than above.

In the interests of accuracy and clarity should the board be renamed?

My suggestion would be 'Pike and Shot Era'.

Personal logo Herkybird Supporting Member of TMP06 Nov 2015 12:22 p.m. PST

Logical…I agree!-though some non european armies might need their own boards!

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP06 Nov 2015 12:36 p.m. PST

No

Mako11 Inactive Member06 Nov 2015 1:21 p.m. PST

No, though perhaps there could be some separation between the different periods, e.g. the late medieval/early renaissance periods, and others.

Rhysius Cambrensis Inactive Member06 Nov 2015 1:34 p.m. PST

No

Leadjunky06 Nov 2015 1:37 p.m. PST

No

RavenscraftCybernetics Inactive Member06 Nov 2015 1:51 p.m. PST

yes!!!! early middle late renaissance with sub-boards for each European country and more divisions as to each scale and size.
Then add specific rules boards!
WE MUST PIGEON HOLE!!!!!

Rhysius Cambrensis Inactive Member06 Nov 2015 2:16 p.m. PST

Lol

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP06 Nov 2015 2:36 p.m. PST

Sigmar?

Cyrus the Great06 Nov 2015 2:38 p.m. PST

No.

Rhysius Cambrensis Inactive Member06 Nov 2015 2:41 p.m. PST

My parents have just got a puppy (3rd dog now and I haven't got one yet thanks to a grumpy land lord!) but they called her Iris (at the moment) so in honour of what I wanted to call Iris can we rename the board Freya?

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP06 Nov 2015 3:14 p.m. PST

How about separate Boards separated by length of pike?

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP06 Nov 2015 4:51 p.m. PST

Yes but where will these guys then fit in?

picture

Mako11 Inactive Member06 Nov 2015 5:03 p.m. PST

Might want to ease back on the caffeine just a tad, Ravenscraft……..

;-)

charared Supporting Member of TMP07 Nov 2015 5:25 a.m. PST

Yes but where will these guys then fit in?

"Renaissance Master Artists' Warrior Board".

grin

Mute Bystander Inactive Member10 Nov 2015 10:20 a.m. PST

Here we go again…

NO!

Reactionary Inactive Member25 Jul 2016 2:35 a.m. PST

Sausages!

Griefbringer25 Jul 2016 4:11 a.m. PST

Should the boards be renamed, I would suggest that the new board names include the relevant years for the sake of clarity, for example:

Pike and Shot (1500-1700) Product Reviews


As for the terminology, miniature wargamers have a long if questionable record of misusing historical terminology. Current practice amongst historians IITC is to call the period from the end of Middle Ages to the French Revolution as "Early Modern".

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP25 Jul 2016 4:20 a.m. PST

No.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP25 Jul 2016 5:05 a.m. PST

How about separate Boards separated by length of pike?

Lol! Best line of the day!

A sea that raged no more Inactive Member25 Jul 2016 12:44 p.m. PST

Yeah, like totally. Rename it. Like ya, what does Renaissance actually really mean?

Think of a new name. Let's get enlightened.

Puster25 Jul 2016 2:47 p.m. PST

"Pike and Shot" is commonly connected to the later era, mainly the TYW and contemporaries. I have yet to find someone referring to the late Burgundian wars or the Italian wars as "Pike & Shot".
On the other hand, calling the ECW "Renaissance" indeed stretches the term far beyond its historical meaning.

As neither term fits well, we can just as well keep the existing, well known.

If we do swap, however, I would amend the years with "1475-1700", rather then the easier 1500-1700, as imho the pike entered warfare with the Burgundian defeats by the Swiss, with a direct trace from there to Guinegate and the evolving Landsknechts – which made working pikeblocks available to all European nations.
Wether 1700 is a good closing date is another matter.

Marcus Brutus25 Jul 2016 6:22 p.m. PST

Funny, because I see the Burgundian War as the last of the late Medieval struggles (along with the War of the Roses). Something big shifts in Europe between Nancy and Fornovo.

Bill N25 Jul 2016 7:57 p.m. PST

I was going to suggest the codpiece era.

Condottiere30 Jul 2016 8:09 a.m. PST

Something big shifts in Europe between Nancy and Fornovo.

That something is the rise of gunpowder weapons, which started long before Fornovo in European warfare. Pikes are not really relevant to defining the era, especially since the principle Swiss (and other "nationalities") weapon was the halberd.

Maybe the era should be called: "The Rise of Gunpowder" or simply "Gunpowder." Because there was nothing very "Renaissance"-ish about warfare during the period. No looking back to the Ancients for inspiration--a Renaissance thing--until much beyond Fornovo.

The Last Conformist30 Jul 2016 8:46 a.m. PST

I've always disliked the wargamer (mis)use of "Renaissance", so I'd be happy if it were remained. Dunno if "Pike and Shot" is a particularly good replacement, tho – apart from whether the 16C counts as "Pike and Shot", the combo only applies to parts of the world (mostly Europe). How about "Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries" to go with the following Eighteenth Century boards?

mashrewba Inactive Member30 Jul 2016 1:48 p.m. PST

How about Big Flouncy Trousers Board -probably doesn't cover it -Oh God what about the use of half pikes -is there half shot by the way. I'd stick with Renaissance -no-one but toy soldier people is going to give a toss anyway -and most of them won't give a toss either.
We know what we mean -it's not like Marlboroughs people were saying thank God for 1700 and the end of all that Renaissance Bleeped text

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2016 9:35 p.m. PST

How about the sweaty, smelly men in fancy pants board?

Sandinista30 Jul 2016 10:08 p.m. PST

If it must be renamed just use the years 1450(ish)-1700

Cheers
Ian

Condottiere31 Jul 2016 4:46 a.m. PST

@Gattamelata- yes, there were ancient military texts available before Fornovo, but little evidence that they formed the basis of military practices during the pre Fornovo period. So, no "Renaissance" in military thinking.

Condottiere31 Jul 2016 6:26 a.m. PST

Name a single pre Fornovo commander who used ancient military practices on the field of battle. Vegetius' text existed for centuries before Fornovo, but there is little evidence that it influenced military developments on the battlefield in the Renaissance period before Fornovo that would make it a "renaissance development."

Puster03 Aug 2016 3:22 a.m. PST

Pikes were in use way before the Burgundian wars…

Naturally. But the combination of professional standing armies, the dominance of infantry using pikes in mobile offensive formations, the developing massed usage of handguns and guns on carriages on the battlefield transformed warfare, and the first time all of these were combined in effect in a camapign was imho in the later wars of Charles the Bold (if not all in the same army).

It took a while to combine this into the new style of warfare, and to me it seems that the bulk of this transformation was made after Charles defeat and before the French invasion mainly in the conflicts between Maximilian (then as acting duke of Burgund) and first Louis, then Charles of France. Within 10 years after Nancy Landsknechts emerged as the predominant infantry, soon fighting in England, Naples, Sweden or Russia. By 1496, when France invaded Italy, the style of warfare was imho already well into the "pike&shot" era, even when many later engagements still did not use all aspects.

Perhaps 1450 is really a better starting date, with the emergence of standing armies in France and Hungary, and the fall of Constantinople as a political landmark that transformed Europe. The "16th" century would be too late to include the start of this period. Just imho, of course :-)

That said, medieval and "pike & shot" certainly share many years and aspects. No need to be exlusive.

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