"Gates of Antares initial thoughts" Topic

There are 20 Concord humans, 3 medium drones and 5 small. This is about 500-600 points depending on options, roughly 6 dice. The Ghar have 6 suits only usable as 2 units and come out roughly 400 points and 2 dice that can be upped to 4 with some risk of losing dice during games. There are a lot more options to buy than in Bolt Action such as grenades plus 10% of a force can be spent on army tactics like forcing a dice redraw.

Almost all troops have some sort of armour which improves their save. Some armour works better in different circumstances. The weapon selection is also wider than in Bolt Action where the rifle is king. Some of these weapons have special effects so a note of weapons and what they do will save some rulebook thumbing. The number of special rules is not as great as in 40K but there could be the beginnings of the same flood of special rules here.

Hitting, saving and pinning is D10 based with a 1 always bad and a 10 good. Pinning is more complex than in Bolt Action although the overall concept is the same.

The minis are much the same size as 40K but the humans are more slender. Detail is also less crisp for the humans although the Ghar are strongly accented. There are limited options for replacement features on the sprues. You do not end up with the heap of spares as with 40K sprues. 4 human sprues are included and 6 Ghar. Looking at the size and parts I estimate the national sets as smaller and with less bits than the Bolt Action WW2 boxes. If the WW2 boxes retail at £25.00 GBP (30 human minis) then I would estimate 2 * £20.00 GBP worth of plastics here. The separate rulebook is £30.00 GBP The whole sold pre-order for £70.00 GBP but eBayers already have it at £65.00 GBP (including launch special figures). With the pre-order transmat probably worth £5.00 GBP, a Warlord order would about break even on the parts. This situation should be compared to the GW big box sets that generally hold a heap more stuff than buying in parts (although this is not so for the last tau and white scars boxes).
Few separate minis are available yet but Warlord must have good stocks of the plastics. Most vehicles are hover propelled and there is extensive use of drones. Armies also rely on squad weapons like mortars and small artillery both of which are rare in 40K

This would make the best proxies:
Tau as Concord for drones and able to use Concord as Tau human auxiliaries in 40K. Except for being hoofed, blue and 3 fingered Tau are pretty much Concord.
Eldar for the bikes and skimmers as Concord or Algoryn. Dark Eldar are a better buy as the 40K meta won't touch them and they go for less on eBay
Space Marines for Concord or Algoryn
Necrons have some nice flyers and skimmers so Concord or Algoryn
Imperial Guard as Freeborn as that is the only human race with un-armoured infantry
Gretchin or chaos cultists as Ghar infantry, Chaos dredds or killa kans as Ghar suits but both of these are really pushing the envelope
Tyranid as Boromite and that is straining the system.

I have my minis in the box painted but not based up yet, it has been too wet here for the varnish and basetex to dry. My hope for the system is to get more 40K players to play. Locally there is some resentment against codex creep. Looking at the points and special rules Antares games will need a lot less figures than 40K (if you have big 40K armies this may not be a good thing). It will also involve less dice pulling than Bolt Action unless play shows that the very few low quality cheap figures are worth spamming. Any detailed gameplay feedback will have to wait until I get some games in.

Okay I really do not like any game that has pinning in it.

Since in real combat troops will either fall back or move forward.

What they will not do is just sit there and continue to get shot which is what pinning does.

Lets take Orks as an example they are expected to fight but you can have a unit of them lose one Ork and because it was caused by a weapon that requires a pinning check they fail and have to stop right where they are at.

Not realistic at all since what they would do is continue to move forward so that they can get at the enemy.

The same goes for blast markers which is why I do not like the last Epic set of rules.

One correction the Concord have 20 infantry (+ 1 special figure), 4 medium drones and 8 small drones…..each sprue has 5 infantry, 1 medium drone and 2 light drones, which gives you two units pre sprue (1 unit of infantry & light drone and 1 unit of 1 medium drone & 1 light drone).

in real combat troops will either fall back or move forward.

Weird, because I've read many first-hand accounts that indicate otherwise.

Yes. Sniper fire and well placed machine guns have kept units pinned for hours. Sometimes until outflanked by another section or suppressed or destroyed by indirect fire.

Don't make your mobs so big so you can have more or support them with other mobs and you will minimize the effect of pinning weapons.

Mithmee is not a troll.

Pinning happens all the time on the modern battlefield.

Pinning the enemy and maneuvering a flanking element against the pinned force is a foundational element of infantry tactics.

OP has several things wrong – GoA is a roll low system. 1 is good and 10 is bad. Pinning works vastly differently than Bolt Action. Additionally, while OP is correct on lack of numerous options on the sprue – they actually contain all the options for that unit type. Extra options would be meaningless as they would be actually useless. And has been pointed out, the contents listed in OP is incorrect as well.

"Lolololol in real combatz no pinning!!
Well entire US doctrine is based on a lie"

- USMC buddy on reading Mithmee's response

I don't think this game is going to make any big waves.
There so many options nowadays(a good thing) that I can't imagine another game becoming king of the hill.
Any other thoughts or opinions?

posted this over on Dakka:

…

So anyone else play demos on Launch Day? There was a pretty big list of stores. I got in several demos yesterday, and even though I had skimmed the rules, I was a bit unprepared for exactly how GoA plays. My impressions, in order:

0. the big obvious thing is that it's a roll low system. 1 is usually lucky and has a bonus, 10 is extra unlucky and is an auto fail and often has extra badness associated.

1. it does not play like Bolt Action at all. that was hard to break myself, having played BA for like two years now
2. individual model movement and positioning matters quite a bit.
3. reactions are intensely interesting and make for a much more dynamic game (as anyone can react if they don't have an order dice; however, Ambush order guarantees your ambush will happen). simultaneous firefights or diving for cover when shot at, etc. pretty cool stuff.
4. being Down is much better than in BA for surviving fire; being Down is horrible horrible when you get assaulted
5. the pinning system is vastly different than BA – and I like it quite a bit more, actually. it seems a bit more realistic. failing break checks can have different results depending on the break check. units whose Resist is higher than 10 after reducing it by a weapon's Strike Value – IE, can't be normally killed – can't take pins. So Ghar battlesuits hit by Concord plasma carbines on rapid fire mode can't take pins (but, on direct fire, where it has SV2, bringing the Ghar Resist down to 10, now can be pinned)
6. simply receiving an order will remove a pin. lucky command check removes an additonal pin; unlucky actually removes no pin.
7. you have to take a command check to remove a Down at the end of the turn!
8. while most armies share similar stat lines, their available equipment and special rules make them play vastly differently. Concord and Isorians, with access to a bajillion drones and an almost requirement to play combined arms, I can see being vastly different to Algoryn.
9. I love love love the fact that most infantry weapons have multiple modes of fire.
10. I love love love that Assaulting always includes a round of point blank shooting from both sides before actual punching and kicking happens (and that grenades can be used in hand to hand!)
11. I love love love the "pushing your models a little extra" rules like Sprinting, where you can check a unit's Agility to get extra movement (and a lucky can result in even more extra movement, failing gives them a pin, and unlucky 10 is two pins – but they still get the extra movement). or Fast units can keep a Run order on them to the next turn and can move before order dice are drawn.
12. MOD – multiple order dice units – while not having used them yet – i can see will make some units incredibly tactically agile. Ghar battlesuits using all their plasma reactor options to temporarily become MOD2 and such, combined with their plasma dump venting thing, for instance.
13. that there D10 system really does allow for nice little granularity. for example, Concord strike dudes, being humans, have a Resist of 5. their armor is effective against concussion and ranged weapons. so +2 Resist, or +3 against blast weapons, but it goes down to +1 at 10" or less (so they are less survivable at super close / pointblack+handtohand). Interestingly the Ghar suits basically have grenade flechette things that explode when they assault, so the Concord are good at surviving the Point Blank part of Assault when Ghar charge in (as they are blast weapons) but then their plasma claws can pop Concord dudes no probs (as they are a random strike value – on one assault a unit of Ghar Assault hombres smacked my concord so hard that my Resist was reduced to a 2. which means 2 or less on a d10. needless to say they didn't survive)
14. oh and you cause pins in assault – whoever causes the most pins wins a close combat! so vastly different than Bolt Action, again.
15. really, the Bolt Action comparisons should stop. one is Alessio's baby, where streamlined rules and elegance are king, and this is Rick's baby, where interesting granular tactical choices appear to be king.
16. the force composition is great. due to the nature of limited choices, you basically have to theme an army in lower points games (can only take concord drop troops if you have a drop troop command element; command elements are limited and only 1 in 4 units can be limited – so at lower points you basically have to field a platoon flavor). at larger points you can have more quantity of units so can take more limited choices, or, mixing themes. rather interesting.

"Lolololol in real combatz no pinning!!
Well entire US doctrine is based on a lie".

Funny thing about what Marines did on Iwo Jima then.

You are taking a doctrine of trying to hold a unit in place while another outflanks it.

Certain games idea of pinning is you get shot you with a weapon that causes pinning and you fail your pin check so you cannot move at all not even to fall back.

Two totally different things.

Mithmee you don't seem to understand pinning.

Iwo Jima was a perfect example. It took, what, 24 days to cross three miles due to heavy pinning keeping the marines from advancing without tremendous casualties (and they did suffer more casualties than the Japanese in that battle)

Modern US doctrine is overwhelming firepower, so that the enemy is pinned in place and cannot advance or retreat. If they do try to, they get killed because they are up and moving. The machine guns keep the enemy pinned so that infantry can assault. Hell, this doctrine hopes that you DO get up to advance or retreat because then you get killed by bullets.

In real combat, overwhelming fire forces troops to go down, because exposing oneself to either "fall back or move forward" would get one killed.

"What they will not do is just sit there and continue to get shot which is what pinning does." Actually that's exactly what pinning does in real life. You pin an enemy so they are unable to move and then you assault them in close quarters. This is why the entirety of US doctrine has moved towards suppressing and pinning your enemy and then closing to kill with close quarters M4 carbines.

Gates of Antares' pinning system follows this perfectly. A pinned unit goes Down, which means an enemy shooting at them has to re-roll successes, but an enemy assaulting them goes first.

A pinned, but not down unit, also reduces that unit's fire in the form of accuracy modifiers (which is of course the other purpose of suppressive fire in real life)