"Question for Vets: TO&E vs Practice?" Topic

Simple (?) question for veterans: how much did your unit's gear vary from paper TO&E/manuals and was that under peace time or combat conditions? What unit level was that? Note that we're talking personnel and gear.

Another factor you might want to discuss is transitional periods such as move from M113 to Bradley or, for gray beards, M14 to M16! :-)

I'm especially curious as I find myself frozen by a certain amount of angst over TO&Es for our next game which covers WWII to today. In doing original research and looking at how other games cover certain topics it's amazing just how much variance there is. In some cases the histroical record is tough to pin down. In other cases other games seem to have made some really glaring errors. I want to be as accurate as I can but in some cases the target is vague or shifts constantly! :-) I guess that I shouldn't sweat it too much but I do want to be as accurate as possible within the limits of available information (and for moderns a lot of that is simply not available due to security concerns and rightly so).

We always had gear to meet our ToE's, ready to show for a visit from brass or an inspection etc…….there was usually a stash of goodies somewhere ready for deployments etc, extra ammo/rations etc,crates of 'consumables'-flares-trip/parachute/schmulies etc…….our unit armourer had enough 'spares' to put together another half a dozen GPMG's for distribution when/if the balloon went up…..ammo scales were usually double or triple 'official' levels………
On a personal kit level, our unit had a 'use whatever suits' policy, we had a real variation in web equipment, but standardised location of first aid gear etc………UK/US pouches of varying ages, several of us had South African chest rigs ( rare in the late eighties), several others had French or German gear mixed in too…….we were also allowed to wear Barbour jackets until the arrival of goretex (glow in the dark!) jackets etc…….
Other units were 'regulation' and would not countenance any non issue equipment……….very much dependant upon senior officer wishes…..I recall seeing a convoy of trucks all painted in exactly the same black/green stripe pattern…….ours were rather more haphazard……loaded with extra camo nets, hessian screens,tentage and cable reels……..

Gaz, that covers an issue I hadn't even considered.

I was looking at this topic for game design purposes. Do I define a given platoon as being composed of SAW or Assault Rifle-SAW sections?

But your comments raise issues for figure designers. How should the guys be dressed? Most modern US figures appear in full kit which is probably gow they fight most of the time. But I've seen a number of videos, especially from Afghanistan, where US troops fight in t-shirts and web gear. Head gear in that theatre also seems more varied, especially for special forces.

Great answer!

In the early 80's, in an active duty A1 priority unit our battalion was typically around 80% reported effective strength. We had the equipment and personnel on paper, but much of it (especially our missiles, radios, night vision and vehicles) were out for maintenance problems. Were were short a lot of bodies and many of what we had were out for training or other duties.

It really going to depend on a lot of factors. How well supplied was the military at that time. During the Clinton years you might have the vehicles but a number of them were no longer serviceable. They had been striped for parts. Troop count could be much lower as well. Especially in today's environment were the military is being drastically reduced.

During the Cold War, it was not unusual for units to have more than the ordinary TO&E if they were in Europe and near the front. Russian units varied based on the role they were to cover (OMG versus regular Warsaw Pact division).

There is a Yahoo TO&E group that you can check with.

I was USMC for 10 years, mid-90s to mid-2000s. My experience in infantry battalions was that during peacetime/in garrison we were always below T/O. We had all our gear, but were always down bodies. And the gear was old, sometimes worn out, though mostly functional. I've got some of the oft-heard stories of SAWs held together with paper clips, M-16A2s that rattled like a jalopy (never even saw a 'black' M-16 until 2004!), shear and barrel problems on the -60s, etc…

Regarding being low on bodies, you the had sick, lame, and lazy, guys were getting orders to different units (PCS), guys were shipped out to other places temporarily (TAD and FAP), guys were being processed out for disciplinary, physical, and hardship issues, etc…

When battalions did 'normal' deployments and exercises (UDP to Okinawa, floating on the MEU, CAX, etc…), all the TADs and FAPs would come back and a lot of light-duty chits mysteriously disappeared. The battalions would generally be right about at T/O.

When we went to Iraq, we were actually overstrength. On the equipment side, brand new weapons were busted out, all kinds of new gear surfaced (that's when the Interceptor vests came out for us, AN/PVS-14s replaced the -7bs, PEQ2s/PAC4s showed up on a wide scale, AN/PRC-148s radios, etc…), and bodies flowed in from everywhere.

Each platoon had at least an extra NCO and a couple non-rates (E3 and below), plus an extra Doc. There were extra guys and Docs at the Company and Battalion levels (extra scout snipers too). The battalion was plussed up with various attachments (mostly combat engineers, but some other cats and dogs as well). The bodies were culled from all over the world, from various base, HQ, and training units, then thrown in with us during the pre-deployment work-ups.

We were in the first battle of Fallujah (April 04), with fairly heavy casualties as a battalion (I was with B/1/5, we had 3 KIA 51 WIA). Platoons and squads were kept 'alive' (though a lot of squads were folded down to only two fireteams) by moving men around the battalion, though mostly from within each company, and a lot of guys were pulled from Weapons Platoons to fill out the rifle squads.

We lost two Lieutenants; one was replaced with a pull from Weapons Company, the other replacement was flown in from the States (this was the only replacement from the States for the whole battalion, that I'm aware of).

So, info is a little dated (almost 11 years I've been out now), but hopefully it helps you on your way.

V/R,
Jack

Based on my experiences, you deployed with what you got. Vehicles may be dead lined, troops injured, on leave, in military schools, on Special Duty, etc., etc. … Cdrs would issued weapons to the number of troops on hand vs. what is authorized by TO&Es.

That is way crossing training on all weapons systems is so important. If the Squad's designated M60 gunner is injured and not deployable, you assign that weapon to another in the squad. My rule was all heavy weapons were issued before M16s if the squad was short a body(s).

You try to stay within the TO&E based on what you have on hand. But a Plt could be short a track and short the authorized strength of a squad or two. The PL or PLTSG would cross level without even being told. And they knew the Cdr's guidance, etc. … On occasions there were no M16s in a squad. All a Squad's SAWs, MG, GLs, M47, etc. were issued.

The Tank Bn I was attached to during REFORGER '88. One of the other Co Cdrs, a Tank Co, asked, if my unit was some sort of Commando unit or something ? Everybody had a heavy weapon !

I recall a WWII anecdote of a German Company down to 24 men. But still had the full complement of HMG's.

I remember most of the units I was with we were mostly issued what our TO&E authorized us to have except people. Except in the early 90's 3/69 AR, we were TO&Eed as a 10 humvee scout platoon but 24th and later 3rd ID liked the idea of Bradley scout platoons. We had all of the TO&E humvee stuff(except humvees) and all the Bradley scout platoon stuff. We had LOTS of extra fire power.

Jim

In a Military Intelligence Company of the Battalion Combat Team, we had all the correct equipment for the Multi Ground Sensor platoon. What we did not have was the correct languages in the platoon. When we deployed to Operation Iraqi Freedom, only two of us were Arabic linguist, the other eight were French, Russian, and Korean.

@Jack…what sort of units were attached directly to your company? Ever work directly with a tank platoon for example? Who was allowed to call for arty and air? Company and platoon leaders only?

We gamers in the role of company commander what the full complement of toys to play with: rifles, MGs, mortars, tanks, air, arty, etc.

@Crow Bait…did your MI company/platoons operate independently as complete units or were you parceled out to rifle companies?

Thanks to all who have replied, you've been very helpful. We've decided to stick with basic TO&Es for the main rulebook but then explore the nitty gritty reality in campaign-specific books to do the topic justice.

Another option which we might do is release the "armories"/point basis of various forces and allow players, especially you vets, to fully customize their forces based on their experience. You can ignore or use points as you like or just use the game data to build your own scenarios.

VIS,

At company level, attachments were only a handful of interpreters, combat engineers, and intel types (for the whole tour).

"Ever work directly with a tank platoon for example?"
Yes, twice. In Fallujah we had a couple specific missions where tanks and tracks (AAVs) were put in direct support. But that was simply a 'in here to go there, whoop it up, then leave.'

Regarding air and arty: we got into a sandwich once, and that's the only time we ever had air during my entire tour (one gun run by an F-18). We had an arty FO and his RTO with our company (I don't know how many were with the battalion), but we never got clearance to use arty during my tour in Iraq.

Theoretically anyone on the net can call air/arty. It's going to go back through the battalion S-3 supporting fires section, and they're going to approve/disapprove, give priority, and make sure ordnance is going on the right spot.

In our once case of air, the Company Commander called it (he was on site). And like I said, we never got cleared for arty, despite the protestations of the FO (with an FO on site, nobody else even tried).

**I take that back: right before I left Iraq (Sept 04), we were sitting outside Fallujah (I was on a rooftop about 8 or 900m away; it was the prep phase of the 2nd fight for the city, and I left before that occurred), and the battalion's S-3 Air came out with his laser designator, painted targets on some buildings, and dropped them.

It was kind of wild because you didn't see anything until the bomb hit, didn't even know fast movers were in the area. He called out 'on the way, fire in the hole!' then WHAM! But we weren't in a fight, we were just manning an OP on a rooftop, and scout snipers had used their optics and spotted some targets. They even took some shots with the .50 cals, but missed.

60mm mortars, M-240G MGs, and SMAWs are organic to the company, in Weapons Platoon.

V/R,
Jack

In my Army experience, sometimes new equipment would show up as part of a fielding plan that hadn't yet been added to the written MTOE. That happened, for example, when we received a new scatterable mine dispensing system called the MOPMS; I (as the company's New Equipment Training NCO) had to develop a training plan from scratch because none of the other sappers had even heard of the thing. We also had to come up with doctrine for using it until the combat engineer field manuals were updated.

All the Signals Intelligence was General Support, so the Division decided where we went. We were seperated from our unit and given to a National Guard unit out of Montana. The Human Intelligence (Interrogators/Counter Intelligence) was Direct Support and stayed with the BCT.

VIS, don't know if you seen the 'Skirmish Campaign' series of scenario books, they have variable attachment tables that add or subtract troop numbers……….worth a look for ideas on ToE 'friction' and attrition……

Great reading of the answers given, reminds me of vehicle reliability…….'my' truck was particularly temperamental……breaking down at inoppurtune moments…..( leading the other 40+ trucks off of a ferry…..fuel pump failed at the bow doors……………..replacement pump failed 4 weeks later on a level crossing!)…….. vehicles were serviced regularly and well maintained but some were just 'unlucky'……….
Manning levels were critical in the late '80's…….we were at 50% for a time awaiting an influx of recruits……( our platoon had 2 sgts,6 cpls and 9 troopers instead of 4/4/24)…….

Vis, one of the problems you are likely running into is TOE Vs MTOE. Let me explain

You know what a TOE is. An MTOE is a modified TOE, and every single BN in the US Army has one. I am an Artilleryman, so will use that as an example. For an Arty BN you will have Artillery medium SP. This will cover everything all SP M109 BNs are supposed to have.

But, 2/27 FA stationed in Ray barracks West Germany will have its own MTOE which will be modified for the mission it is expected to play and the country it is in. As we where to back up 11th ACR in the Fulda gap, our gear reflected this.

One shining example was 1/36 Inf BN (onethree-sux is how they sdaid it) had more TOW launcehers than any other INF BN in the Army. So not only was it different from a Stateside BN, it was different from the other INF BNs in our division.

As for extra gear, anybody who has been in the Army more than 15 minutes realizes that old NCOs stash extra crap. This is because some yahoo at a desk in the Pentagon is not going to be the one hanging out there with out something you really do need. But, because everybody knows this, the bean counters send out inspection teams to make sure you dont have extra stuff that would more profitably be sitting in a depot somewhere being accounted for. So it is hard to hide an extra Howitzer or .50 cal MG. But it is not that hard to hide things like spare parts for things that break a lot. So you are likely to have a lot mnore extra stuff that gamers are not interested in, but 1 to 1 gamers need a lot.

Now when you get into a war zone, things change a bit. Nobody is going to sweat an extra MG, but you cant go tpo the corner 7/11 and pick one up. My battery wound up with an extra 5 ton truck and a water trailer, called a buffalo. I have no idea where they got it but we had it through until we got sent back to Germany, then they just parked in the amnesty yard.

I was in charge of an FDC section. We where issued 5500 rounds of ammo for our M60. I have no idea what somebody thought an FDC was going to last long enough to shoot that much, but I certainly did not dump any of it. It cover the enrtire floor of the M577 and made taking up the floor plates a real pain.

we where also issued a bunch of handgrenades. I gathered all of my sections up and locked them up. After seeing a couple of idiot privates playing with them, I think every other section chief in the battery did the same. The only person to actually carry any of them was my totaly worthless platoon Sgt, and he got in trouble later for losing a couple of them. Moron.

owen

I would like to second what Legion had to say about understrength units and give an example.

At one point my platoon was at half strength.

Every NCO carried an M16/M203

Every private carried a SAW if he was not carrying an M60

I was an NCO and I carried an M16/M203 and a Dragon ATGM

The basic M16 rifles were all left in the armory.

Much like Badger, my Mortar plt was not too much different.

Our -60 gunners on the command tracks (577's) had about 2k worth of rounds. All the Guntracks (106a2's (4.2in mortars)) had about 500 rounds stowed and a 100 in the gun along with our ammo for the Mortar.

When we deployed for Desert Storm, I remember us having extra ammo for the Mortar- a dozen rounds to bring us to an even hundred rounds of various type (iirc, we had extra HE)

As for small arms, we mortarmen were issued the standard for the time (210 rounds) but more than a few of us managed to score a few extra mags and boxes of rounds.

In contrast, I deployed with a Navy Cargo Bn in 05- I was one of the few who was issued more than 180 as a loadout (helps I was friends with the armorer and my Section Lead knew what a wreathed rifle meant :) )

The SeaBees I went over with in 2010 were no different… though the number of former marines among the various companies ensured extra rounds would be found and available.

In all cases, no grenades… though some of the EO's managed to acquire some in the Stan for the convoy escorts.

Gaz, that covers an issue I hadn't even considered.

I was looking at this topic for game design purposes. Do I define a given platoon as being composed of SAW or Assault Rifle-SAW sections?

Weapons-wise, I would always assume the most firepower available, because the troops and commanders are going to prioritize the SAWs and GPMGs over individual rifles.

But your comments raise issues for figure designers. How should the guys be dressed? Most modern US figures appear in full kit which is probably gow they fight most of the time. But I've seen a number of videos, especially from Afghanistan, where US troops fight in t-shirts and web gear. Head gear in that theatre also seems more varied, especially for special forces.

Well, special forces get a lot of leeway on things. I'd expect them to be in "modified grooming standards" with full beards/goatees/whatever, weapons and equipment as personal preference.

That said, the US Army is pretty notorious for being able to go from skivvies and shower shoes to out the door in full kit in less than 3 minutes.

To add to Dragon's post. As a PL in the 101, I've deployed with 17 troops of 36. As a Mech Co Cdr, on one occasion, of 112 authorized … We deployed 63.

On another op, my Mech Co. was 1 Mech Plt. and a CE Squad. I even had to incorporate the attached Maint. Section's M578 Light Tracked Recovery Vehicle and their M113 into the defense … they both mounted .50s, so I needed all the firepower I could get.

And both the 101 and my Mech Bn/Bde were part of the 18th ABN Corps. Along with the 82d, all RDF units …

Wow! Great answers all and very reassuring. I think I've been over thinking and angsting about this too much.

This has given me some ideas on a new approach for modern forces TO&Es in a game context. Thanks all!

As a young Medic doing patrols on the z with infantry we had to account for every single round and piece of equipment when we came back. We would often come under fire and in order to defend ourselves we would have to ask permision to return fire.. we did not wear body armour or steel pots on patrol we also "aquired Massive amounts of spare ammo which we hid on ourselves after the PCI I even hid spare mags and 40mm rounds in my Aid bag.. This gave us the ability to return fire and stay alive while the RTO asked higher for permission to defend ourselves when we got back we had excactly what we left with so no one got into trouble…

Active Edge was a call out exercise in which units were called out and kit checked down to one's spare socks and toothbrush! Of course they were kept quite and no AFVs were ever driven by chaps who were slightly over the limit!

Because there is likely to have been a build up to any major confrontation chaps on leave or courses would have been called back and war stocks readied.

Tally Ho!

TO&Es are what you are supposed to have, but reality has a habit of getting in the way. There are always equipment shortages of some type. Additionally, even Xerxes had a problem with troops scrounging extra gear. We always had the right number of tanks and related gear, but never enough trucks in 1 division I served with. Personnel were so short at times, we couldn't man all of them, even though we also used the clerks and mechanics. When we became one of the first COHORT companies, we need
ed a bus to carry all our extra crews. The longer a unit was in a combat zone, the more spare gear they would acquire.

TO&Es can also change locally. For example, when the 2ID converted from M48A5s to M60A3s, our TO&E was changed so we could keep all the extra M60 machine guns.

I was in an MI Company from 1978 to 1984 in California. We had a large expandable 5 ton van, with nothing in it. It was supposed to be an imagery interpretation unit and photo developing van. We had vehicles that were as much as 15 years old and they were essentially brand new. Maintenance was perfect on them, and we were usually close to or over staffed. Still, people would come and go and be off at school, so we might be plus or minus 10%. Most of us were Vietnam War veterans, but some, like me, were not.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Early 80's Infantry Battalion. We added everything we could to our equipment that was not already provided.

Norwegian and German army shirts in place of shirts KF.
German Para boots with side zips. Gortex jackets bivvie bags etc from army surplus stores and "Silvermans".

Civvy DPM Bergans and day sacks.

58 patter bum roll disappeared from its usual position to on top of your kidney pouches. Respirator case became storage for cans of coke and mars bars.

Weapon allocation did not change, the only noticeable change was the option of taking SLR instead of a SMG for signalers, individual preference.

If there was Gucci kit out there we bought it.