"EMPIRE Rules clarification" Topic

Hi all

Last we had a scenario where a unit of cav moved up to align with a sister unit and it triggered an Opportunity charge by the opposition. We were unsure which of the initial units could then respond with a counter charge.

Any ideas?

Nobody on your side counter charges. You triggered a charge and do not get to counter.
Start measuring and pro rating distances from starting positions.

At least that's the way we play it. A triggered charge is an immediate response to your movement.

Wait! so if you moved your cav up and it triggered a charge from the enemy then you are caught at the stand still? wow!

No. The unit that triggered the charge and the enemy meet halfway.
If they pass all the élan and all that.

A is not involved. B and Z are.
Of course if the starting distances are not in your favor, Z could slam into A who sits and takes it.

Empire is rather unforgiving when you trigger opportunity charges.

wow I dont think we've ever read it that way.

We've always played that any cav charged by another cav can opt to counter charge seeing as that is what they spent most of their training time doing. Can't think of any historical account where cav was caught at the stand still like that.

We were thinking about what other units can be involved along the lines of defensive support fire from nearby infantry. Its a consistency thing.

You move ONE unit at a time. You don't get to drag in another one unless you are moving a complete regiment.

Also if you move a unit without issuing fire or charging, it ends your turn.

Yes remember this is cav so each unit is a regiment but they are part of the same brigade

And yes the movement of B loses the initiative but the counter charge by B is because of the Opportunity Charge by Z. Think of it like a conversation, I talk, then you respond to something I said, then I respond to what you just said.

The key is, as I understand it, at what distance is B when it is close enough to trigger the opp charge?

As I understood it.
Why would A not be involved!
If B becomes close enough to trigger an opportunity charge, but there is enough distance between them all ( Ie the "jump move" 2" or less?IIRC of Z is not the distance between it and B) so A has reaction time ( which since Z is crossing its front- it should have this opportunity per the illustration), then A is also triggered as opportunity charge by Z's charge.
So Z should have to re think this and reason A and B are in support of each other.

So it is both!

MG

To be honest, as diagrammed, the situation is impossible.
B starts out directly behind A. It attempts to be directly alongside of A. To make that move would require at least three impulses. It would have to change formation, move to the position while presenting it's flank to Z, then change formation. It cannot just slide into place.

But even if it could, "triggered charges" are only allowed to the side whose phase it is not.
To attempt to get A to charge along with B is to try to avoid the structure that ONE UNIT IS MOVED AT A TIME.
Empire is notorious for penalizing your movement when you do not set things up ahead of time.
What the heck is B doing behind A in the first place? It's awkward deployment and deserves to be punished.

Boy this sure brings back "shades of nightmare past"
Dennis

So Winston Smith
The solution is… (assuming B has the room to maneuver to the front line- ignore illustration as presented) that… "I move B X distance then with remaining move distance charge the brigade (A&B) against Z"? Thus I avoid the stupid situation I placed/ or got forced into of my force in the first place?

Once again both A & B can counter charge, since Z is crossing A' zone of control/front. resulting in the same combat.
Z missed it opportunity by not OC when A moved up, or charging in the earlier pulse.

MG

No. A CANNOT "countercharge" since that option is only open to the non phasing player.
I do not own a copy of the rules but I play with Empire fanatics.

What you are basically trying to do is move two units when you can only move one. If I am not allowed to get away with it, neither can you.

I would also be intrigued where you come up with the concept of "support" in Empire.

WS
Good point -I need to look at my rules on OC and CC again tonight since I will have a game in two weeks with some big names playing. We are still in need of players BTW you all!

The "support" is basic discript / referral to explain two units working closely together as the illustration seems to indicate.
Not a special formation which introduces modifiers as in Shako or in other rules sets. Hope this helps.

MG

Thanks guys but I think there is a lot I need to clarify.

1. A and Z are blown having just had combat on Z's impulse which saw A pushed back.

2. It's now B's impulse and B is in column and therefore can move up next to A in a single move.

3. Z rolls for Opportunity Charge as a result of B's movement and rolls enough to meet B.

4. A cannot Opportunity Charge Z's movement because Opp Charge only occurs for the non impulse player. If Z was charging B when it was Z's impulse then yes A could declare an Opp Charge.

5. A and B are both part of the same Brigade

6. Empire V rules state any charge can be met with a Counter charge. I am still at a loss to recall any of my historical accounts where a cav unit was caught standing around when charged by another cav unit.

7. The "support" idea came from close infantry units nearby being able to fire in support of their friendly unit targetted so I extended that to cav as well as an idea to find a solution.

David,

Thanks for posting, but without a scale to this diagram the situation is unclear. I'll be happy to comment, but a scale is a must.

By the way, I'll be at the Dayton big game in October if any of you would like to visit.

Best regards,

Thanks Scott

I'm in Brisbane Australia so while that would be a fantastic opportunity it is a fair way away from me.

Let me know how the scale makes this more clear because the move by B was within Opp Charge range and unit Z did roll enough on the die to reach unit B.

There is a lot of game terminology being thrown around on this thread. We are using the words in a manner that is not on the game.

"Countercharge" is an example. This is NOT the same thing as an opportunity charge. Opportunity charges are only made by the non phasing player.
In addition your drawing implies that B is in line. That was one of my assumptions, that it was in line directly behind A. So if you say it can fit without changing formation or wheeling, ok. That's different.
B announces it is moving, and as soon as it is in charge range of Z, Z may declare an opportunity charge. Both must take immediate élan test and apply the results.
Of this results in Z hitting A, then A takes an élan test. But only if the prorated movements would have Z hit A.
A cannot make an opportunity charge because it is the turn of the player who owns A. B is moving. A cannot, UNLESS Z would contact it.

I made a few errors yesterday, but this is how I see it now, given your clarifications.

Again, there is no "support" in the rules that covers this situation. When your Maneuver Element is phasing, you move one unit at a time until you have a failure.
You want to move B. You cannot move A during B's movement unless it gets dragged into it by Z's opportunity charge, and only if A would be contacted by Z.

I think.

It is also some what clear that since Z will Opt Charge across A's zone of control and/or may contact A at the end of Z's move if B was not to contact Z in the first place, then A is considered to be able to charged and like B it would be a "counter charge".
This is the case even thought the player's declaration/intent is only to go after B because of its position in the situation. Once again A was left in a position to support B's re-deployment, so in B's move (that is triggering Z) A should assist by default per the above.
Cav will not allow itself to get caught "flat footed" where possible- which seems to be the case here, to NOT!
Z needs to reconsider going in!
If Z was in a position to charge straight ahead where it would not attack A in any way with it's OC to B, then yes by the rules mechanics A was not ready to address the threat and remains in place.
B may have enough movement to pull 1 stand or more from the second rank through expanding its frontage during movement! That should not be left out of the equation.

Scotty it will be good to see you once again, in Oct.

MG

Simest way to resolve things is to do it unit by unit.
Z cannot do anything until B comes within charge reach. ( Being blown , it may not be such a good idea , but we are gamers. )
As soon as B comes within charge range, Z must declare his intent. This could possibly be at the start of B's move.
Both take an immediate élan test. Apply the results but move no one. Mark with chits or dice where they would end up. Heck. B might run away or freeze. So could Z.
If the movement of Z would bring it into actual contact with A, then and only then can A declare. It must take an élan test. Apply results.
There is nothing automatic about A. There is no "support" unless Z would contact it.

This corrects some errors I made above.

One more thing. Z could smash B. Even if Blown, dice are dice.
In a follow up, he could hit A. Then A tests élan. It could just sit there and take it, particularly if Blown and just average.

Been there, done that.
That's why I only play with DUB cavalry or Guard cavalry. Average cav always lets me down.

Game mechanics always override "I never heard of this happening historically!"

Winston
Where are you getting this "Both take an immediate elan test"? What page of the Empire V rules states that as we have always understood Elan tests only occur when the charger (cav or inf) take fire on the way in their attempt to contact their target.

Beats me. I am going by the way two iron fisted Empire players run the games we play. They have always required an élan test for every charge. Ate you saying they automatically go through?

Answer me this. How, where and when do you draw A into the brawl between B and Z? How close does Z have to get to A?
B is the unit with "initiative". Not A.
You seem to want to draw A into it if Z reacts to B. Consider the chaos if the table is more crowded. What if there are C Y X D nearby?

Thanks Winston.

Elan tests are only applied when a charging unit takes fire during the charge. Having said that our group at one stage did add a morale check for charging units based on research but it has dropped by the wayside recently. We also added a token for every charge or CHARGE or FEINT so players could pretend to charge, force the enemy to respond and then pull the charge up – also based on some research. That has gone as well :-(

Our question about A is because the impulse player can charge a brigade of 2 regiments as a single move if he chooses to do so. Taking that in mind, if B then counter charges a charge from Z we are wondering why A would not also counter charge is both A and B are so close together and are working together by consolidating their frontage by the original move by B to get up and next to A.

I agree that Z is taking on a little more than they can swallow especially considering in this scenario Z is already blown but if that player wants to take that risk then thats his choice.

Personally I would like to investigate more base to base options to add to Empire. I think if units are not touching then there is assumed to be space between them and therefore less tactical options as a whole force when compared to base to base where one can assume they are working together (provided they are the same Infantry Regiment or Brigade or Cavalry Brigade). Of course the rules do state that an Infantry Regimental Mass must be declared at the beginning of a battle and must stay that way for the whole battle and penalties apply.

Our question about A is because the impulse player can charge a brigade of 2 regiments as a single move if he chooses to do so.

Well then do so. If you choose to move only B, then you have given up the option to include A, except through an extraordinary happenstance.

Given up the option too be A during B's movement of course. A can always move when B us finished of course.

I better shut up before I dig myself a deeper hole.

WarDepotDavid
the idea is to keep it simple.
well coordinated individual units attacks didn't typically happen but, a brigade CO ordering his Brigade forward in an attack happened in a Nap Army and a Nap Army had the command control means to do so.
Key to such is are they within the distance from each other… You indicate stands touching. Per the rules it is a certain distance (X" and ICRC) between the units of the brigade or regiment. So where it is met than all those units can take the single action of that regiment or brigade move.

To the original Posts
So the simplest thing would have been to charge the whole brigade (A & B) since they were in proximity to support {A &B can both fight together in an action} each other vs Z who appears to be the "Lone Dog".
The charge distance of coarse for A is reduced by the movement of B to be placed in position to make charge forward. That is the distance is measured from B and not A.

@ WS
"What if there are C Y X D nearby? "

if they were positioned to support one another, just a bigger brawl would ensue. Been there!

MG

My two cents:

You're both right at least in part. A&B could be activated either together as a brigade (provided they do the same thing e.g. both move or both change formation) or separately as a single regiments.

How they are activated determines the who is opportunity charged. If B is activated and moved as a regiment, the result is more or less as Winston describes. Z opportunity charges, and B can elect to counter charge. A stands there unless it would be contacted by Z before contact is made with B. (Para, 11.47--counter-charge only available to unit directly charged)

If they are activated as a a brigade, its as Greg describes. Z is opportunity charging the movement of the entire active brigade. The both units of the brigade are therefore the subject of a charge and eligible in this scenario to counter-charge (Para, 11.47)

No elan test necessary if there is no defensive fire.
There is no concept of "support" as described by Greg.

I dont disagree that its the "historical" and/or "common sense" thing that both regiments would be mutually supporting, its not how the rules always work out. Imagine for sake of argument that A & B are part of different brigades (and therefore different ME, per Para 2.07)of the same cavalry division. This would force B to maneuver by the regiment in the scenario above and A would do nothing unless contacted. Empire punishes poor deployments.

I am very sympathetic to Bowden's comments in Emp. V about not being able to write a rule to cover every situation. Empire takes a lot of dedication and time to even be conversant in the rules and still situations crop up. It is a very slippery slope departing from the rules because of historical examples… games can devolve into discussions about why or if a rule should be departed from.

From my own personal experience, its been argued based on historical examples that cavalry should be able to make division charges or that infantry/cav should be able to make successive charges to "follow-up" the lead units without employing the "wave attack rules". This despite the rules clearly stating Cavalry ME is a brigade per the rules. Its very difficult to umpire a game once the playbook becomes subject to such exceptions.

P.S. Re: Cavalry Regts meeting a charge flat footed.

There was one or two mega threads on TMP a year ago on this subject, which are worth reading if you interested in this little nuance. Bottom line from my recollection of the sources provided was that:
1) Its was very rare for cavalry to meet a charge at a stand still.
2) It did happen a handful of recorded times.
3) Of those times, it usually went badly for the cavalry caught flat footed.
4) The times the flat footed cavalry were successful, some aspect of the terrain (hill slope, ditch, creek, etc.) was present disrupting the charging cav.

Before Waterloo, a light dragoon NCO commented about charging a group of French lancers at a stand still.

The lancers simply waited until the offending cavalry was within 30 yards of their position and leveled their lances toward the charging foes. The result was pretty devastating, 30+ light dragoons wounded or outright killed with minimal lancer loss.

Food for thought.

Hi

Get into the right formations to provide 'support' before coming into engagement range. I get the impression cavalry is overused on the battlefield that's why I'm waiting to try out the old Empire III rules about 3 Fps per charge with no blown rules. Two Charges of whatever type and you have to Stand Down (III) / Rest & Rally (V).

Just my six penny worth

Plus if B is too close behind A to just slip across and field move in beside A then your initial deployment was at fault so you must pay the price?

Cavalry NEED space.