"The T-72 Condundrum" Topic

Next on my list of things to model for the Aotrs Shipyards is the T-72 – since we already have basically all the variants (MTU-72, IMR-2, BMPT, T-90…!) except the actual T-72 itself.

The hull is principally done (had to be to do the aforementioned); "all" I have to do is the turret.

And thereby comes the debate: WHICH T-72?

The current hull is drawn principally from a technical drawing for the T-72M.

link

With the Cold War period being of interest to people, I went to have a look on wiki to determine what T-72 version I should be looking at.

And the results were… Unhelpful. It doesn't help that the T-72 is, like, the second most used tank in the world…

From what I can gather, from my various google searches and sites, the original T-72 (the T-72 "Ural") is somewhat different, since it had no side-skirts and the search light the other side.

The modernised version of the T-72 "Ural" (circa 1980) switched the searchlight over and added the skirts.

The T-72A apparently has similar modifications, but also has thicker armour on the turret.

The T-72M is the export version, but I have no idea as to what the visible external differences between the T-72A and the T-72M actually are.

The T-72B is different again, with more turret armour, even ignoring the ERA blocks.

So the question becomes which one to model?

The T-72M is the obvious one of course, since we've already got the hull for that, but is it visually similar enough to the T-72A to essentially be the same model at 144th scale. (I.e. could you tell the difference between them at 144th scale even if there were any?)

Are the differences by and large sufficiently visiually small (barring the obvious exceptions of the original Urals without the side-skirts or the addition of ERA armour bricks) as to not be worth concerning with at 144th for the T-72?

Suggestions and/or a good compartive illustration of the differences (particularly between T-72A and T-72M) would be helpful.

(Otherwise the best – well, ONLY – comparitive picture I have found is this:

and the website seems to equate the T-72A and the T-72M1 and the original (presumably modernised) T-72 with the T-72M, but as it has no specific entries for the T-72 Ural or the T-72A, it's a bit confusing…)

Are you trying for a specific time period?
Soviet army , a Warsaw Pact army or a third orld army like Iraq or Syria?
If you answer those questions you might give yourself your own answer.

The M1 may be the most generic and useful.
Superficially that would be the base model.
Built for home and export by the USSR. Built for home and export including to the USSR by the Poles and Czecks.

When the word 'export model' is used be cautious.
That is something that only became popular after they started getting brewed up and popping theior turrets like champagne corks in '91 in Iraq.

If it an elite Soviet unit, go for the B version. Just remember not everyone had these.

I have no preference, since in 1/144 most of the differences are indistinguishable on the gaming table. From a marketing perspective, the T-72M is available in pre-painted plastic from China for under $3 USD each, so go with either a T-72A, the M4CZ model, and/or add the ERA.

Cold Steel, do you have a reliable source for them?

Most of the pricing I see is in the $4.50 USD – $5.00 USD range, if/when they are in stock. On eBay, they're usually listed for considerably more.

As mentioned, the M1 and M2 are available in plastic. Apparently, no M2s were really built, other than a prototype.

I went with the M1 for my forces, due to availability, timeline they were introduced, and since it sounds as if they are very similar to the T-72A model, though I'm no expert.

It would probably be best to refer to a well-researched book on the T-72, if you can find one, and/or if there are any. I suspect there should be.

Given the availability of the plastic models, perhaps making one with the ERA on it would be advised, assuming they were produced in decent numbers.

Not sure if you are restricting your offerings to just Cold War I, or if you are considering the ultra-modern period?

If the latter too, you might take a look to see which variants are serving in combat with the Russian guerrillas in Ukraine, and with their Ukrainian military opposition.

You can get those details from the link I posted fairly recently on Ukraine, since it lists the different vehicle variants and types in combat there.

Here's the link to the Ukrainian Conflict booklet:

PDF link

Appears from the list that the Ukrainian Army is using various T-64 variants (no T-72s).

The guerrillas/Russians are using:

T-72B,
T-72BA,
T-72B3 (Kontakt-5 ERA, introduced in 2013, and not known to be exported to other nations – just "vacationing" in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, per the Russian propaganda ministry, which says all of their soldiers in Ukraine are on holiday),
T-72 mod 1989 (whatever that means – ah, apparently the T-72BM),

in addition to various T-64s also, like the regular Ukrainian Army.

Here's a pic of the T-72BM, with ERA:

I do like the looks of it.

Another thing to consider is that the T-72 "Ural" also had the stereoscopic rangefinder blisters on the top of the turret, another visual difference. IMHO it also had a slightly different turret shape compared to the up-armored variants later (more "svelte" which makes sense). That being said, the only users of the Ural I have found were either the Soviets or Syria, so not a hugely popular model.

There were also 2 different hulls for the T-72, with applique armor on the glacis plate, and without, though I am unsure how much of a detail difference that would make at this scale

I'd go with the A, or possibly the -V variants (but that would need a new hull for the reactive armor).

Damon.

Right. Taking into consideration the above, and after a conferance with my oppos at Manouvre Group, I think the T-72M/T-72A is the first target, since they are basically externally the same vehicle (or may as well be at this scale!)

(From the sounds of it, it's probably not worth working back to the original early 1970s model in the immediate future.)

The T-72A slash -M can thus serve as the basis for further modification. My intention had been to do a version for the Cold War period and one with ERA for the later periods anyway (but you have to do the former to do the latter!)

T-72B can go on the list somewhere; notably, it's much harder to find any good images (i.e. both photos and technical drawings) of the T-72B than the T-72M in any case, so the solider base I have to work from the better! And that too, can eventually be produced both with and without ERA.

T-64 and variants (like the T-80) is something I plan to tackle eventually, at some point down the line.

(Though I think once I've done the T-72, I might have a break from Russian vehicles and do a Boxer variant or two, just for a bit of varity..!)

Join the t-72 armour group on facebook.Lots of great images to be found.

T-72B can go on the list somewhere; notably, it's much harder to find any good images (i.e. both photos and technical drawings) of the T-72B

Keep in mind that the picture posted by Mako11 is the box artwork for a Trumpeter 1/35 scale plastic model. The T-72 kits are really, really good from Trumpeter, so if all else fails, buy the kit and use that as a…er…model!

Damon.

There are some pics on-line, that appear to look just like it.

I just posted that, since it looked a bit nicer. I have no idea how accurate it is, but hopefully someone has done a decent job of research at the company.

Yes that's a lovely picture Mako!

You left out the Ural -1a and Ural-1b
produced in 1976… Ural hull and a T72M1 turret but with corundum ball filler rather than quartz/waterglass…
Version A had the stereoscopic rangefinder… version b had a laser range finder. You still see photos of these models occasionally.

Canceled due to politics by the way.

Joe Collins

WarpSpeed….

"Join the t-72 armour group on facebook.Lots of great images to be found."

None of the groups that popped up when I searched Facebook with "t-72 armor group" looked too enlightening (and one of them is a "closed group")…….. Have you a specific name you've seen on FB?

Just curious.

Duck

There are a number of groups of interest including:

link

And for GSFG/WGF

link

link

Tally Ho!

Probably the most lucrative version would be the M2-export version since it can be used by many countries. FWIW, there is one parked across from my building, captured in Iraq (with it's original sand scheme) and is still in running condition!

Having a T-72M with ERA and splayed out track deflectors would be the cat's meyow for me in 1/144thy to 1/60th scale!

The T-72 turret (A/M1) is PHENOMINALLY difficult to model, it turns out. I can see why the accuracy of some of the model kits is debated. It is nearly impossible to get a good idea of what the turret shape is even supposed to be (let alone how you can model it), since all the bits on it are more or less the exact spot to block the geometry and/or no-one seems to take photos for the actual turret shape, as opposed to close-ups of the the bits on the turret.

(Even among the model kits, the disparity is staggering.)

I have spent four hours trying to get something even remotely close…

.. And I'm sufficient jaded at this point, I'm not even sure how "close" this "close" is.

I will probaly have to get my mate with 25mm T-72s to leave me one; though of course that's no garentee it'll be accurate.

It's like an inverse where is wally only the trick is to find two pictures that show the same turret configuration. Without ERA the best I can say is smoke discharges 7 port in an L shape on its back is quite common and so is the headlight on the starboard side with 5 smoke discharges to the side and a bit behind in a U. This is not universal but probably half the pictures have the port side ones and most of them have some on the starboard. Many of the big scale models are not that good. Some are bare turreted no smoke discharges and the "gubbins" on the turret is so varied anything would be acceptable. I think it's as good as you can do. With ERA it's even worse so give up now!

Bump test as the newest post bit seems no to work