"Why you could hate 12mm" Topic

Why you could hate 12mm gaming? Simple becuase there there are no sane limits. At 1/72 and bigger the amount of scenary you can get, even on 8 by 6 board is limited by the sheer size of the buildings. In 6mm you can get loads of buildings but never really hope to play in then as they are too small to move 6mm figures in. For a show but later a real game we are doing part of Arnem campaign. But the attack by the germans around Venghel and the bridges. Trouble is you can get lots of buildings on the board and with artistic licence 4 villages. Admittedly the smallest is only 4 houses but its playable. Why the hate. Even with our standard houses ,we tend not to be overly historic with houses; when you have 10 togethere houses are just houses all you see is roofs. It still means more than the normal stock of houses and lots of village bases to make. That and a Railway embankment albe it crude and bridges, you can get insane about what can be played in a few evenings. ;-).

It's the lack of so many vehicles needed, for me, as well as troops.

Still, I'm hoping offerings will be expanded, since the scale is very nice.

Hate is too strong a word, so "frustrated" is perhaps better. Hopefully, the ranges people offer for sale in 1/144th – 1/150th (1/160th) will improve soon.

Its the mix of scales that annoys me – what is 12mm? Is it 1/144 or is that 10mm, what is 1/150…?

"It's the lack of so many vehicles needed, for me, as well as troops."

You are kidding right? Take a look at these links then tell me a model you can't made get in 12mm

pithead-miniatures.tk

pendraken.co.uk

miniaturefigurines.co.uk

‌arrowheadminiatures.co.uk

gramodels.co.uk

So 11.5mm would be out as well?

Mini its claimed that 1:144, 12mm, and N scale were the same. I purchased a lot of their WWII infantry and vehicles when they were available. I hope they are re-released soon.

12mm is 1/144th scale.

Don't have time for the entire list, but here's a start:

M151 Mutt – various armaments (MG, 106mm RR, TOW launcher, SS-11, etc.)
M114 Scout vehicle for US Armored Cavalry Units
M59 APC
M75 APC

Spz Kurz – recon vehicle with 20mm cannon (many variants used)
HS-30 with 20mm cannon (also, the mortar variant) – early BW APC/IFV
Marder 1, and/or Marder 1A2 (the IFV for the Bundeswehr during the Cold War – no one makes it, which is a major oversight – they make the Marder 1A3 which is too late for use)

JagdPanzer Kanone
JagdPanzer Rakete – SS-11 and HOT variants not available
Munga jeep
Iltis jeep
West German troops – Minifigs look like WWII Germans, given their helmets (should be using M1-style American helmets)

Bo-105 Helo with 6 x HOT missiles

Proper BMP-1 (the nose on the Minifigs one is too short, and not at the proper angle)
BMD-1
BMD-2
Sagger missiles
No Russian/Soviet jeeps

BPV-302 APC for the Swedes

NM116 for the Norwegians
NM135 for the Norwegians

YP-408 8-wheeled APC for the Dutch

No proper Cold War British Infantry in Helmets, with SLRs – can use Pendraken's Argentinians in a pinch, since they have SLRs, but they have American-style M1 helmets, not British ones.

Minifigs makes some Cold War British riflemen too, but they appear to be carrying those short little SA-80 rifles, instead of SLRs, at least to me, so a bit too late for most of the period.

So, that's a decent start. I'm sure there are others I haven't listed as well.

Sorry Mako, I was talking about WW2 not post war, I didn't know that this had been posted onto the modern boards as well.
6mm is the best bet for modern periods as the ranges are much greater.

No worries, and yes, the WWII selections are considerably better.

Some are even useful for the Cold War period too, e.g. jeeps, M3 halftracks, M24s, etc..

Yes, WW2 is well covered. Even the Korean War with Pithead's recent releases. The Cold War is the problem. The only BMP-1 is wrong, only 1 manufacturer has the RTR-60 and it is expensive. We need more selection for the classic late 70s/early 80s Cold War.

PaperTerrain has a large selection of 10/12mm scale buildings and accessories. Could save you a lot over resin.

paperterrain.com

To the listing of WW II add:
Dragon
Metal Troops
Panzer Depot
Popy
World Tank Museum
Trumpeter

for quite a ready made vehicles. For post war add World Tank Museum series 6 & 9
link
link
And Trumpeter
link

Once again ready made. For many of the World Tank Museum modern series Ebay is your best bet. Lots of the post war Trumpeter is still available as it was never as popular as their WW II vehicles.

Cold War gets tricky, because people tend to want to just play late 80's, so I think that's where the manufacturers put their efforts.

While modern tanks have serious gun ranges, I don't think any tank battle is going to exceed 1200m in Europe. Just minor sniping outside that range.

So unless you're going for 1/300 groundscale, I'd rather have bigger vehicles and infantry, to more rapidly ID them!

Its not my period but 1200m sounds a little short to me. German tanks were destroying Shermans and T34's at 2000m in WW2 and as to visible ranges, go and sit on any small sized hill in Europe and you can see out beyond 3000m unless the terrain is totally forested. Even in the late 70's there was a 50% kill probability at 2000m.

Actually the average range at which tanks were destroyed in Northwest Europe 44-45 was less than 1200m.

The monograph on "Data on World War II Tank Engagements involving the U.S. Third and Fourth Armored Dvisions" published by the Ballistic Research Laboratories out of Aberdeen Proving Grounds in June of 1954 stated the average casualty range for the study for allied tanks was 946 yards and 893 for German.

A monograph by the Army Operational Research Group (memorandum no. C6) published in May 1952 "A Survey of Tank Warfare in Europe from D-Day to 12 August 1944" concluded that the average range for tank engagements in open country was 1,204 yards and in close country 405 yards.

There are of course other studies which confirm these sort of numbers.

Yes but these are averages. In close terrian tanks may have encountered each other at just a few hundered yards or less in the bocage. So to get an average of 1200m you need some much longer knock out ranges. So you can still get plenty of kills (and fact must get plenty) beyond 1200m.

TomT

Except third and fourth not unleashed until cobra so didnt fight in the bocage.

Also note the British study specifically addresses open country where they specifically state the average was 1,200.

Numerous studies detail the ranges and beyond 1,200 meters were not the norm.

They just want to/can only play the 1980s, since there's no stuff for the late 1950s – 1970s, which is a shame.

Actually, no stuff is perhaps a bit too harsh – let's say a very limited selection, instead, especially for appropriate early to mid-Cold War troops for the period.

Oh, and I don't even look at the Panzer Depot stuff, since it's listed at crazy prices. You can get prepainted, diecast metal, 20mm vehicles for the same price they want for their little resin, 12mm ones. Ridiculous.

IIRC, Metal Troops minis are also very, very expensive.

In modern AOTRS SHIPYARDS on Shapeways has lots of stuff. Mine rollers for leopards, bridge layers, engineer vehicles as well as tanks, and some APC'S.

IMHO 12mm. Is THE scale for WW2 gaming. Other posters have pointed out by the range of models available, they are also of very good quality in many instances. I do have lots of 6mm and 20mm in this period, but, given the choice, will always use the 12mm.
Original poster said "no limits" for 12 mm- simple answer is to play scenario based games, which are based on real actions and set limits on buildings and other scenics. I play Battlegroup games and there are lots of scenarios to choose from.

Mako11

You are correct on some of the prices. As to 50s-70s Trumpeter does have the T-54 and T-55 (alas no T-62) and the World Tank Museum the M48A3, AMX30, M551 Sheridan and even the venerable Russian T-10 but yes it appears slim pickings otherwise.

Yea, I've got a battalion plus of the T-54/T-55 tanks, and some of the M48s, M551s, T-10s, and a very small number of AMX-30s.

They're all very nice.

Wish I could find more of the plastic Leopards too, especially the 1A5s.

I have some of the T-72s and T-80s in plastic, to oppose some M-1s as well.

Wished they'd make M60A1s, T-64s, BMP-1s, BTR-60s, Marders, M114s, and M113s in plastic too (not the very late M113A3s, but the earlier M113, or M113A1 model).

there are too many scales. it's ridiculous. while on the surface the choice seems like a great concept, the fact that most manufacturers are (very) small businesses we have so many great artistic talents dispersed. There are huge product holes in so many categories and scales. I admit this is MOSTLY NOT a WW2 problem (though, my poor Napoleonic and 18th Century armies…) I mean good lord, why do we need 10 AND 12mm. Don't get me started on the 15,18 and 20mm debacle. Even within the scales themselves the difference is staggering. It is a farce that we even USE numbers.

rant over : )

Mako11

The Shipyards do M113A1s already and they are listed as A1s, since that's what the technical drawing I used as source was labelled. (I suspect you'd be hard pressed to tell any external differences between a M113 and M113A1 at 144th, though, since the upgrade was basically just the engine.)

There's basically very little external difference between A1s and the A2 or A3, either, aside from the external fuel tanks. (And at that, I found where CADing the M113, there are so many variations between individual vehicles and what bits are added on it was hard to know what add-on bits to model…)

I have even done the external fuel tanks already – I put them on the FISTV. The problem was, the TOW and FISTV versions are so damn similar (by design), I realised that your average wargamer was going to struggle to tell the difference on the table top! So I added the drop-tanks and the front unit over the splash plate to the FISTV just so at least the wargamer could tell them apart…!)

(So, should anyone ever want M113A2/A3s with the drop tanks (and/or front units) at any point, it'd be fairly easy to get them sorted – beauty of CAD modelling, especially when it's fairly easy additions! (Up until the Shipyards started proper, this was a fairly low priority item, since I was mainly doing them as commissions for UshCha and Maneouvre Group.))

daler240D

As you say, there is often more variance between figures of one scale then there is between close scales, and the smaller you get, the bigger the difference is. I think perhaps people are being a bit more fussy than perhaps is necessary these days? I dunno.

(When we play scifi at 1:72nd scale, I use my 25/28mm GW-plastic conversions against modern 72nd stuff and it's not too badly out of place!)

I produce the Shipyards stuff at 144th scale. Thing is, 144 is defined variously between 10mm and 12mm (I think depending on how tall you assume you default man is. I think this is a more recent thing, I dunno; I don't there there's ever been a debate between whether 300th should be 5mm or 6mm so, I dunno!) Further, a lot of 10mm infantry has a bit of scale creep so it's closer to 12 anyway. So I've taken to stating Shipyards stuff is 144th (10/12mm), since it will do both, rather than just 12mm as when I started.

"There are too many scales. it's ridiculous why do we need 10 AND 12mm."

There is a lot of nonsense talked about this scale, 10mm and 12mm are only notional sizes, here are the facts.

Pendraken figures, base to eye level 11.5mm
Pithead figures, base to eye level 11.5mm
Minifigs figures, base to eye level 11.5mm(realistically proportioned)
Arrowhead figures, base to eye level 11.5mm

Pendraken vehicles 1/150
Pithead vehicles 1/150
Minifigs vehicles mostly 1/150
Arrowhead vehicles 1/144

You will get slight differences with different manufacturers with most scales so why the hysteria with this one

Wargamer6,
10mm was the original, actualy in truth at perception level (if you put them side by side) they are a factor of 1.7 different to 12mm. In effect you percive 10mm nodels to be 1,7 times smaller than 12mm. In reality while some early models were 20mm the figure were always oversize and hence 12mm. When we started there were lots of 144 scale plastic, not quite as many and these were all 1/144 which is UK N guage. The newer models like AOTRS Shipyard are very accurate 1/144.

Interesting where this thread has gone. The partial joke I stated it with was that at 1/144 I now have to build more buildings than for 1/72, as with the baseing trick you can play an urban game almost as well as 1/72 and fight the open battles not possible in 1/72 without impracticaly large tables. What has come out from everybody else is a rant about models. Interestingly Alex of Shipyards can be as low as £50.00 GBP if you share the copyright and then you can get as many as you want printed. The price per print is now not that different to the better models available (and nowhere nere Panzer Depot prices. Hence we have commisioned lots of models and as its shared copyrigh we print our own models on the home 3D printer if they are not too complex.

The compurer geeks among you could even draw your own and get them printed.

I came to 1:144 WWII out of nostalgia to recreate a WWII collection, but without having to paint and assemble AFVs by picking up loads of Takaras WTM series models cheap some years ago. Otherwise I might have picked a more normal wargaming scale.

For me its kind of annoying that you can pretty much pick up a kit of any aircraft you care to mention, but AFVs are very thin on the ground.