"1970s Era USMC Company TO&E?" Topic

I've read a bit about the USMC in Vietnam, but need to refresh my memory on that a bit, again, going forward.

I've got the TO&E for 1968 for them, which lists the LVTP-5, but I'm interested in the rollout of the new LVTP-7 to the units, in the early 1980s. Not sure how many men each of the vehicles carried though, and what weapons, so if you can shed some light on that, it would be appreciated.

I've also got info for a later USMC company and battle group, from a TTG TO&E Org. booklet, which seems to provide the data from the early/mid-1980s – hard to tell, since no date for the unit is listed specifically, but it does have Hummers listed in it.

The TTG orgs. don't list details on the numbers of men in the command, infantry, and support groups (squads/fire teams).

As mentioned, what I'm really after is the organization before that, but after 1968, so perhaps from the very early to mid/late 1970s.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the TO&Es may be similar to that of the latter period, but just substituting Jeeps, and/or Mutts for the Hummers, one for one, but am not sure about that (perhaps two jeeps per Hummer is more appropriate).

Also, I'd like to know what the squad/platoon/company breakdowns are for the troops carried in the LVTP-7s, especially with regards to machine guns?

The later, 1980s TO&E listing I have for a battle group lists up to six platoons of 5 x tanks, each, and up to six companies of the LVTP-7s.

A company of LVTP-7s contains eight vehicles:

1 for the company HQ – command group, and a rifle group

3 x platoons of 2 x LVTP-7s each; one of the two LVTPs in each group will have a command group and an infantry group; the second vehicle in each platoon will have to infantry groups

1 x LVTP-7 platoon with 1 x LVTP-7, carrying a command group, and 6 x 60mm mortars (seems like a lot in one track, and no mention of other heavy weapons for it).

I suspect the "groups" above are equivalent to squads, in some cases. Perhaps a bit smaller than that for the command "groups".

So, what I'd like to know is if this TO&E was used in the 1970s as well, or if there were more than eight Amtracs in a USMC company?

The 1968 TO&E lists 11 x LVTP-5s per company, and I seem to recall seeing 10 x Amtracs mentioned as being appropriate for a company as well (but don't know if that is accurate).

Also, if you have details on the numbers of personnel, and types of equipment carried (weapons carried by the various command, infantry/rifle groups, and the mortar group), for the early LVTP units (early to mid-1970s), I'd be interested in reading it.

I've read they typically carry anywhere from 13 – 25/26 men, plus the crew.

I suspect a standard USMC squad, at full strength might still be 13 men, but am not 100% sure about that.

I'm also interested in finding out if they were still using the M60 machine gun during this period as well, in their squads, and if so, how many a squad had?

Finally, confirmation on the use of Jeeps, and/or Mutts for the various attachments to the companies would be appreciated. These typically carried 106mm recoilless rifles, Tow launchers, machine guns, Manpads, Dragon launchers, etc..

If there's a good, on-line reference for this info, I'd be happy to peruse it, if you can point me in the right direction, to keep you from having to do a lot of typing.

Not sure if this helps:

LVT-5 could carry 34 fully equipped Marines- 45 in an emergency. Phased in 1956. Phased out in 1974.

LVTP-7 entered production in 1972. Designation chenged to AAVP7 in 1985. The AAVP7A1 provided protected tramsport of up to 25 combat equipped Marines from ship to well in-shore.

No mention of anything more you asked about.

Source: "Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles", Robert Jackson, ISBN: 978-1-4054-8664-4. I'll keep looking….

v/r
Tom

"A company of LVTP-7s contains eight vehicles:"

No, this is completely incorrect, sorry. Not even close.

From their introduction until post-1991 Gulf War they used a fairly standard organization.

Each platoon had ten vehicles. Platoon commander on the first vehicle ("0"), Platoon sergeant on the last ("9").

Each company had four platoons, plus an HQ. The Company HQ Platoon had 2 C-7s (Command Vehicles for the infantry), an R-7 (Recovery), and 4 P-7s – two of these were "chase" vehicles for the C-7s and two were for the 'Track battalion commander.

So – 47 LVTs in a company. 44 P-7s, 2 C-7s, 1 R-7.

There were four companies in a battalion. There were three battalions, one on Camp Pendleton (3rd Tracks), one on Camp LeJeuene (2nd Tracks), one overseas, mostly on Okinawa (1st Tracks). Some companies were detached from the battalion and sent elsewhere, for example Delta Company 3rd Tracks was sent from Pendleton to 29 Palms. Also, 1st Tracks, out of Okinawa, was an odd unit and combined with tanks to make 1st Armored Assault Battalion…

The general idea was that each 'Track unit could carry the next largest infantry unit. A platoon of tracks could carry a company of grunts, a company of tracks could carry a battalion, etc.

The "25 Marines" per track is more than a bit optimistic. "18" is packing them in tightly. There nexer was a specific, assigned TO&E load (i.e., "this track carries mortars"), it was always done on an as-needed basis.

Source: I was a 'Track crewman myself, during the time period you're talking about.

That's me in 1988, in front of my vehicle. "A-48" means "Alpha Company (of 1st Tracks), 4th Platoon, 8th vehicle."

Anything else I can help with…?

ScottS, Awesome info, many thanks for sharing it.

That's great info Scott.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.

A great photo, too!

Yes, if you don't mind the additional questions, e.g. how many men would be in a typical squad, "platoon" (30 – 40+ men presumably carried in two amtracs), company, support section/platoon, and what would be their typical weapons loadouts?

3 x squads, plus an HQ, and a support section/squad for a typical "platoon" (sorry – perhaps you use "section" instead), or whatever you call the USMC equivalent to the US Army platoons?

Presumably, given the number of troops, a "platoon" (30+ men) could be carried in two tracs?

If you could shed light on how the vehicles inside the "platoon" of ten vehicles are organized, e.g. in pairs, trios, always as all ten together, that would be helpful too. Trying to wrap my head around ten vehicles in a platoon, since I'm far more familiar with 3 – 5, or the occasional 6 when artillery vehicles are involved.

IIRC, most TO&Es for the Marines, from WWII to the present, seem to indicate 13 men per squad – now with 2 x rifles, 1 x rifle with grenade launcher, and 1 x M249 (though of course this wasn't available in the time period I'm asking about), plus the squad leader (some say with just a rifle, but many other sources seem to indicate, at least in Vietnam, that the S.L. almost always opts to have a rifle with G.L. attached).

What I'd like to know, is the squad and platoon level troop details, plus HQ, and any weapons squad info, since apparently the TTG Org. book I have is wrong.

Would each squad have a M60 machine gun?

IIRC, the answer, at least for Vietnam was no, and that there'd be like 2 x M60 teams in the heavy weapons section/squad, and that they might be parceled out to the squads, as the "platoon" leader saw fit.

The recoilless rifles were generally left back at base, at least in Vietnam, from what I've read. Might have been different, if expecting the Soviet/W.P. hordes in Northern Europe though.

I don't recall reading about mortars for the platoons, but suspect you might have some.

Did the Marines use Dragon missiles?

I see a listing for LAWs.

Any Carl Gustavs?

Would one of the HQ vehicles typically be attached to the individual companies, like in the LVTP-5 units, in order to make a unit of 11 (10 + 1 HQ vehicle)?

The TTG Org. lists 11 x Amtracs for the LVTP-5
"company" (should probably be called a USMC platoon, as you've indicated, but it was written by people in the UK, so I can see why they'd be confused.

Presumably 3 x units of 3 vehicles each, and either 1 or 2 HQ vehicles, or 1 HQ vehicle and one support trac. Of course, I guess it could also be 4 – 5 units of 2 vehicles each, plus an HQ, and/or support vehicles as well (say 4 groups of 2, and then 1 HQ vehicle, and a unit with 2 x fire support tracs?).

For the LVTP-5 units, they list 9 x rifle squads for the three platoons, plus other stuff like the command section, mortars, machine guns, LAWs, etc. That's why I'm guessing 3 units of 3 vehicles, plus the HQ/Others.

Finally, do you know if the attachments prior to the introduction of the Humvees used jeeps, or mutts?

These would be for the various Scout units, A/T units, AA unit with Stinger missiles or Redeyes, Machine Gun units, etc., etc..

I see the M42 Dusters served with the USMC quite late into the Cold War as well, which was a bit surprising, if the listing for that is correct.

Any details you can share on the above would be greatly appreciated. I'd also be willing to look up stuff, if there are any decent on-line TO&E resources for this period, as well.

Yes, if you don't mind the additional questions, e.g. how many men would be in a typical squad, "platoon" (30 – 40+ men presumably carried in two amtracs), company, support section/platoon, and what would be their typical weapons loadouts?
3 x squads, plus an HQ, and a support section/squad for a typical "platoon" (sorry – perhaps you use "section" instead), or whatever you call the USMC equivalent to the US Army platoons?

The 13-man rifle squad was universal. Three fireteams of four men, plus a squad leader. Each fireteam will have two M-16s, an M-16 with an M203, and, depending on the year, an M-60 or a SAW.

Three squads plus an HQ – a Platoon Leader (Lieutenant), Platoon Sergeant (Gunny), a Corpsman, plus a couple of riflemen and maybe some attachments makes a Platoon. Three Platoons plus an HQ make a Company, etc, etc.

How do you fit them into tracks? Again, there's no set plan. Generally speaking we'd line up the ‘tracks and drop the ramps. The infantry would stuff into them, we'd raise the ramps, and go. Maybe they made some sort of elaborate plan on how to do this, but I never saw any evidence that they did this. It was a platoon sergeant yelling "you, there, you, over there, hurry up."

Maybe – MAYBE – on a formal landing or the like they'd draw up formal "boat teams," but that's a rare exception. On land, they'd just pack in where they fit.

Presumably, given the number of troops, a "platoon" (30+ men) could be carried in two tracs?

Sure, if you pack them in tight. It will be uncomfortable, but that's what you get for going in "open contract."

If you could shed light on how the vehicles inside the "platoon" of ten vehicles are organized, e.g. in pairs, trios, always as all ten together, that would be helpful too. Trying to wrap my head around ten vehicles in a platoon, since I'm far more familiar with 3 – 5, or the occasional 6 when artillery vehicles are involved.

Depends on the mission. You might split them into sections of 3-4, but this was rare. More often than not, it was just ten vehicles, platoon commander in the front, platoon sergeant in the rear.

IIRC, most TO&Es for the Marines, from WWII to the present, seem to indicate 13 men per squad – now with 2 x rifles, 1 x rifle with grenade launcher, and 1 x M249 (though of course this wasn't available in the time period I'm asking about), plus the squad leader (some say with just a rifle, but many other sources seem to indicate, at least in Vietnam, that the S.L. almost always opts to have a rifle with G.L. attached).
What I'd like to know, is the squad and platoon level troop details, plus HQ, and any weapons squad info, since apparently the TTG Org. book I have is wrong.

Covered above, I hope.

Would each squad have a M60 machine gun?
IIRC, the answer, at least for Vietnam was no, and that there'd be like 2 x M60 teams in the heavy weapons section/squad, and that they might be parceled out to the squads, as the "platoon" leader saw fit.

Yes. Well, I think a better answer is "it depends." That is, most gamers think there's some formal TO&E that is strictly followed. That's true, but it is very rare that it is exact. Think of that TO&E as a goal. SAWs started to appear in the late 80's, but it took years for them to filter into every unit; many still had M-60s. It's not like the grunts turned in their M-60s and drew M-249s on January 1, 1987 – these things take time.

The recoilless rifles were generally left back at base, at least in Vietnam, from what I've read. Might have been different, if expecting the Soviet/W.P. hordes in Northern Europe though.

Never saw one, those were before my time.

I don't recall reading about mortars for the platoons, but suspect you might have some.

More likely they were with a Weapons Section, at the Company level.

Did the Marines use Dragon missiles?

Yes, extensively. It seemed like they were commonplace; maybe it was just the units I worked with.

I see a listing for LAWs.

Yes, although they were on the way out by the 80's.

Any Carl Gustavs?

Never.

Would one of the HQ vehicles typically be attached to the individual companies, like in the LVTP-5 units, in order to make a unit of 11 (10 + 1 HQ vehicle)?

Never.

The TTG Org. lists 11 x Amtracs for the LVTP-5
"company" (should probably be called a USMC platoon, as you've indicated, but it was written by people in the UK, so I can see why they'd be confused.

No, never. The "line" platoons were discrete units, likely to be attached to an infantry/grunt company. The H&S (HQ) Platoon of a company would stay separate.

Presumably 3 x units of 3 vehicles each, and either 1 or 2 HQ vehicles, or 1 HQ vehicle and one support trac. Of course, I guess it could also be 4 – 5 units of 2 vehicles each, plus an HQ, and/or support vehicles as well (say 4 groups of 2, and then 1 HQ vehicle, and a unit with 2 x fire support tracs?).
For the LVTP-5 units, they list 9 x rifle squads for the three platoons, plus other stuff like the command section, mortars, machine guns, LAWs, etc. That's why I'm guessing 3 units of 3 vehicles, plus the HQ/Others.

Again, no. Think "a platoon of 10 ‘tracks carrying a company of grunts."

With no snark, you're thinking like the Army, like a Bradley section, where the infantry all has organic vehicles and moves around and fights in small units. The USMC doesn't work like that. A platoon of tracks picks up a company of grunts, moves them somewhere, and dumps them. They fight on foot, as Chesty intended, supported by the ‘tracks machineguns if necessary.

Finally, do you know if the attachments prior to the introduction of the Humvees used jeeps, or mutts?

I went in just as jeeps were being phased out, sorry. 'Tracks still had one or two in the Battalion Motor-T, because you can (barely) fit one on a 'track on a Float (sea deployment).

I see the M42 Dusters served with the USMC quite late into the Cold War as well, which was a bit surprising, if the listing for that is correct.

Never saw one in person, sorry. By the mid-80s they'd switched over to Stingers.

Hope this helps; I'm more than happy to answer anything else if I can.

Besides the lists from a Fist Full of Tows 3, which are pretty elastic anyway – I have an old Firepower weekly magazine (buy the whole set type). It has a pullout 1:1 pictorial of the USS Tarawa's loadout.
My understanding is the marines operate like a Swiss army knife – use combinations as needed or available.

My understanding is the marines operate like a Swiss army knife – use combinations as needed or available.

Yes, very much so. Especially when you start getting into things like a MAGTF; units "plug in" as necessary.

Thanks again, for the detailed response, Scott.

That really helps a lot.

Man, that is a lot of M60s in a squad, e.g. 3 of them (one per four man fireteam), in a group of 13 men (squad).

"A platoon of tracks picks up a company of grunts, moves them somewhere, and dumps them. They fight on foot, as Chesty intended, supported by the ‘tracks machineguns if necessary".

Thanks for that info.

I was a bit confused by that, since seeing them pressing on into Iraq. I figured they might break up into smaller units, as you mention, like the army does for maneuver warfare.

Obviously, I guess they would/could, as the situation dictates in a battle, but from what you're describing, they're more like "battle taxis" that stay to the rear most of the time, rather than being used as "IFVs" to actively support the attacks.

I read that some units did indeed use the M151 Mutts, for carrying their light weapons (which many may have still referred to generically as jeeps), e.g. machine guns, grenade launchers, RRs, TOWs, mortars, etc..

I guess my final question is, how are the Dragons allotted in the unit, and how many would be typical in a ten-trac platoon?

Does each trac get one, or more launchers (and how many missile reloads would they have), or are they kept at a higher level, to be parceled out as needed?

Obviously, I guess they would/could, as the situation dictates in a battle, but from what you're describing, they're more like "battle taxis" that stay to the rear most of the time, rather than being used as "IFVs" to actively support the attacks.

Generally, yes, but it depends on the situation.

Are you tangling with an enemy with a lot of RPGs or ATGMs or tank support? Don't be an idiot; drop the grunts and let them do their work.

Are you dealing with a relatively light enemy, like insurgents? Roll up on 'em and tear 'em up with .50 cals.

I guess my final question is, how are the Dragons allotted in the unit, and how many would be typical in a ten-trac platoon?

Does each trac get one, or more launchers (and how many missile reloads would they have), or are they kept at a higher level, to be parceled out as needed?

One more time – think "a platoon of 'tracks carries a company of grunts," "a company of 'tracks carries a battalion of grunts."

If you're carrying a battalion of grunts, they'll have a Weapons Company, with three Dragon squads, thus 12 Dragons. (They'll also have Tow sections, mortars, etc.)

A regular rifle company might or might not have any, but they will if they're attached/sent down from Battalion. As always, "depends on the situation."

Here, this might help. Forget the TO&E published in games, apparently they're off. Go to the real thing. This is post 1998, but it will get you in the ballpark:

PDF link

Ah, I see.

Thank you, that is very helpful. Appreciate the PDF link too.

I'll be going with a platoon of tracs, so a company of troops.

Four Dragons it is, from one squad.

Unless they know they're going to tangle with armor, then they'll take 12 plus a TOW platoon, or more if they can.

The whole point is that they're going to have as much flexibility as possible. They aren't going to be constrained to a set TO&E if they can help it.

Well, they are going to tangle with armor, but we mustn't make it too difficult for the communists, or no one will want to play them.

I do get your point though, and appreciate the flexibility offered.

Might give them an extra platoon of tanks, in addition to the standard single one for a company of infantry I was thinking about.

Now, to figure out whether to use them on offense, or defense first.

Considering a game to defend/take back some of the Danish isles, where the USMC has to ride in to the rescue to deal with the Soviet/Warsaw Pact hordes (most likely Polish Naval Infantry).

Of course, they could just as well be assigned for deployment in Norway, or Sweden as well, depending upon my mood.

Given that, I'd organize them in MAGTF fashion, specifically a MEU. That manual I linked to breaks down what that consists of.

Sounds good.

Thank you for the suggestion.