"The Rules Are Out!" Topic

It's been a busy week for Hobby News on TMP and the announcement is probably stuck in the queue. Anyway, the news is that the full version of Sabresquadron modern rules – from the Cold War to the Digital Age – is on sale in both hardback (£25) and PDF (£18) versions from:

sabresquadron.com

Any order of a hard copy through the website in September will get a free PDF so you don't have to wait for the post.

Wargames retailers are also taking stock.

Early reaction here:

link

At the reading wargames club we have purchased 6 copies of the rules plus the free pdf's and will be playing our 1st game next wednesday.

We are using them for 20mm 1980 west germany, everyone very excited about them

The rules are very good. We've played the basic version that was available for free prior to the full release and found them easy to play but full of subtleties and thinking outside the regular wargames rules box. I have the full version now. Haven't played them yet, but there is much more in them. Looking forward to playing then again in the near future.

My hard copy arrived today, very nice, looking forwards to trying them in both 20 and 6mm,

Tally Ho!

I should imagine very different in 6mm to 20mm.
Whilst I am sure 6mm would be better to properly represent modern combat ranges and options, we are going for 20mm as it is only a company level game and more importantly my old eyes can cope with 20mm MUCH better than 6mm :)

I'm tempted to do 20's myself. There is no shortage of figures and vehicles (incl. pre-painted) in this scale and it looks much better on the tabletop than the smaller scales.

Got my order in for a pdf, the current exchange rate makes the hardcover plus shipping a bit too dear right now.

Really looking forward to these, and seeing the data sheets and force lists grow. The current lists are in one of my sweet spots, early '80s Cold War, but hopefully we can see some ultramoderns soon – I have a ton of Chinese tanks ready to face off with Taiwan and allies.

Will there be a Yahoo group or forum for rules support? I don't see anything right now, I'm on the mailing list, but I understand that to be for one-way communications right now.

Excellent news!

Do the rules include a quick reference sheet to help speed game play?

What's the page count for those of us considering the PDF version, and is it "printer friendly", e.g., black and white, and excluding large color, or black images/headers?

Any chance of a US retailer providing hardcopies of these?

Looking forward to reading some battle reports to see how the helo, close air support, and AA rules work as well.

@Mako – there's a reference on the website (in the fine print somewhere) about it being okay to photocopy the hardcopy's QRS for personal use, so I believe there's one there.

Oops, just went through a print out of the data sheets, and I see a bunch of Ultramoderns are there – I was reading the sheets sideways on my computer screen before.

The one thing is that casualties aren't taken in individual figures and they don't operate individually. So using even 6mm figures isn't too fiddly.

Thanks for the positives chaps. I'll answer the questions raised:

Will there be a Yahoo group or forum for rules support?

Yes. Time is at a premium currently but there will be a forum/Group linked to the website.

What's the page count for those of us considering the PDF version, and is it "printer friendly", e.g., black and white, and excluding large color, or black images/headers?

There are a lot of colour images and diagrams. You could print out the main rules sections that you're likely to use and leave the Introduction, Basics, Technology, WMD, Conflicts and Tips, which will save you over 20%.

there's a reference on the website (in the fine print somewhere) about it being okay to photocopy the hardcopy's QRS for personal use, so I believe there's one there

Yes the QRS forms the last 2 pages and covers most areas. No problem with copying it or printing it from the PDF.

Also the vehicle datasheet from the rules is on the website to save you having to keep looking things up and turning the book round:
PDF link

Great, look forward to a Sabresquadron community, particularly to go over hardware and sort out all the variants (or more accurately, the names for variants).

Just ordered mine!! Can not wait!

Thanks for the detailed answers and info.

I would like to see an area of a forum somewhere to discuss the rules, army lists etc.

Until someone comes up with a better spot i guess here will do??

OK, I've looked at this and have identified a couple of platforms that would do the job and can be linked to the website. So what should be the areas to be discussed? I reckon:

Rules questions.
Armies & Organisations.
AARs.
Figures & Models – what's available/suitable(perhaps with sub-boards for different scales,), painting queries.
Media – books, films etc.
Networking – clubs, finding opponents.

What does anyone else think?

Scenarios (or maybe this is in with AARs).

Would "how do I rate this tank?" fall into Armies & Organizations? Or should there be a Ratings/Gear board?

Please have a 6mm sub-board if you do break things down by scale!

Yea, all of those sound good.

House rules perhaps too.

Rules questions is priority 1
Everything else good too
I like house rules

Sorry….I still have heart burn with pdf's that cost so much :(

Any chance of more vehicle stats, for some of the earlier models, e.g. tanks, and IFVs, like:

AMX-30
Leopard 1, 1A1, and 1A1A1
Leopard 1A2
JagdPanzer Kanone
JagdPanzer Rakete – SS-11 and HOT
M24 (yes, I know, WWII, but many used them in the Cold War)
M41
M46
M47
M60A2 (better armor for he turret than the M60A1)
M103 heavy tank
S-Tank
NM116
NM135

etc., etc.?

Perhaps some/many of the above can be figured out from comparing to others, excepting maybe those with the 75mm and 76mm guns, which might be a bit more challenging.

Obviously, lots of APCs and IFVs/Scouts too, but generally those are so light, they aren't too hard to figure out:

Spz Kurz
HS-30
M59
M75
YP-408
PBV-302
etc., etc.

I looked at the free rules and they look interesting..

anyone has a good explanation of what you get for the full rules ?

Also how do you build armies ? Army builders, army lists, points, only scenario base ? ..

I guess the cold war bug is picking up :) …

Mako, yes they'll all be done. Cold War stuff will have priority as that's the big interest currently. I'm setting up the forum as the next job then will start ot add to the datasheets. They'll be done with regular updates.

seldonH, that depends on which free version you've got. There's a new edition of the free rules on the website – Rapid Deployment V1.1 – which is more compatible with the full rules but only covers the Cold War. It can be downloaded straight from:
PDF link

The full version adds:
- air support,
- helicopters,
- drones,
- a big expansion of the artillery rules to include MRLs, counter-battery, shoot & scoot, DPICM, smart rounds, etc
- engineering,
- game set-ups, points system, and victory conditions,
- fuller terrain rules and weather,
- combat in buildings,
- electronic warfare,
- extra unit and force types and capabilities.

that is what I was looking for :) … thanks !!!!!

Thanks for the info.

Just so I'm being clear here, my Cold War definition starts in 1946.

I suspect by Cold War, your definition is probably the 1980s (Late Cold War is the term I use for that).

For clarity on this, my generalizations are:

Early Cold War period = 1946 – 1960 (basically, a lot of surplus WWII and Korean era vehicles, weapons, uniforms, and equipment in use by all players around the globe)

Mid Cold War period = 1961 – 1980 (modern warfare period, with new models of tanks, IFVs, APCs, rifles, aircraft, and helos being developed and fielded)

Late Cold War period = 1981 – 1989 (rise of Reagan and the US military, culminating with the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the end of the Cold War)

What is 'modern' is always a moot point. I take the break from WW2 as being 1950. A convenient date that saw the end of the Chinese Civil War with its communist victory, and the start of the Korean War. Also, just after the formations of NATO and the FRG. At this point the east-west division was well set.