 Editor in Chief Bill   | 09 Sep 2015 5:54 p.m. PST |
Which of the Russian offensives offers the most interesting scenarios for wargaming? |
| tuscaloosa | 09 Sep 2015 6:30 p.m. PST |
The great Eastern Front Irony: the Germans won when they had the crappy early war tanks, and lost when they had the cool, heavy metal, big cats. So German players have to discard our desire to push around Panthers and Tigers, and accept the challenge of taking on T-34s with PzIIIs. And Soviet players have to put their JS-152s and SU-85s etc back in the box. Therefore, I would say Operation Mars (Rzhev Salient), because it occurred during the period of tank force transition and when the Germans still appeared invincible. And for such a massive battle (measured in time, space, and casualties), it is surprisingly little known in the West. |
| redbanner4145 | 09 Sep 2015 6:36 p.m. PST |
Kharkov 42 has it all. Big Russian offensive w/ lots of tanks. Greman crushing counterattack. Lots of maneuver by both sides. |
| Winston Smith | 09 Sep 2015 7:24 p.m. PST |
The one that killed the most fascist scum. |
| Weasel | 09 Sep 2015 8:30 p.m. PST |
The Stalingrad envelopment, the counter-offensives at Kursk, the offensives on Berlin or the desperate actions in 41. |
| BobGrognard | 09 Sep 2015 9:26 p.m. PST |
Fascist scum? Italians? What do you have against Italians? |
| Forager | 09 Sep 2015 10:32 p.m. PST |
Uranus – Stalingrad encirclement |
| christot | 09 Sep 2015 10:52 p.m. PST |
Umpire just sent me maps and obs etc for a early 42 kharkov camapaign to be played next January…… Week long game, 20 players, can't wait |
Mark 1  | 09 Sep 2015 11:15 p.m. PST |
The Eastern Front, and the 1940 campaign in France, really test gaming rules and umpire/scenario-builder skills. How can the French lose with H-39s, S-35s and Char-Bs against Pz II's, Pz 38t's and Pz IIIg's? How can the Russians lose with T-34s and KV-1s against Pz IIIh's and Pz IVe's? How can the Germans lose with Pz IVh's and Tigers against T-34s and KV-1S's? How can the Germans lose with Panthers, JgPz IVs and Tiger II's against T-34-85s, SU-85s and IS-2s? If the rules don't have useful crew-quality, turret work-load, communications, and span of command mechanisms, I can't get a satisfying game out of those matches. And if the scenario isn't set up to reflect the kinds of limitations and challenges the commanders of those vehicles might have experienced, I'm not going to be satisfied with the game either. It's relatively easy to make a playable western desert or France 1944 game. France 1940 and Eastern Front are far more challenging, in my mind. That's why I love to play them. Kursk 1943 is the easiest. 5 Pz IIIL's, 5 Pz IVh's and 2 Tigers vs. 30 T-34s. Add a battalion of infantry and a battery or two of guns per side. Slug it out. The Russians win, but how high are the casualties? Not too tough. Barbarossa is the hardest. How can 15 Pz IIIh's and a company of grenadiers defeat 10 T-26s, 10 BT-7s, 7 T-34s, 4 KV-1s and a KV-2, and a battalion of riflemen? I LOVE a good Barbarossa game. -Mark
(aka: Mk 1) |
| Wargamer Blue | 09 Sep 2015 11:16 p.m. PST |
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| Martin Rapier | 09 Sep 2015 11:24 p.m. PST |
I seem to spend a lot of time doing Bagration or the Orel Salient in 1943. 2nd Kharkov is quite entertaining too. |
| Navy Fower Wun Seven | 09 Sep 2015 11:45 p.m. PST |
I don't really have conscious 'Top 10' of Soviet Offensives – perhaps I should! But I do know most of my late war gaming features aspects of Op BAGRATION. |
| MHoxie | 10 Sep 2015 1:52 a.m. PST |
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| Darn Folly | 10 Sep 2015 2:28 a.m. PST |
Another vote for Operation Mars (Rzhev Salient). Rather amazing how little it is known nowadays. |
| Martin Rapier | 10 Sep 2015 3:09 a.m. PST |
Ah, is it less well known than the Yelnia salient… I thought these days Op Mars was pretty common knowledge. I hadn't really thought about a top ten, but a selection might be: 1. Bagration
2. 2nd Kharkov
3. Orel salient
4. Lvov-Sandomierz
5. Crimea 1944
6. Uranus
7. Siege of Leningrad (too numerous to mention individually)
8. Invasion of Rumania
9. Hubes Pocket (can't recall the offensive designation).
10. Vistula-Oder |
| Mute Bystander | 10 Sep 2015 4:09 a.m. PST |
The one that killed the most fascist scum. Fascists/Nazis/Communists – all the same. Why I really dislike East Front WW2 Games – nobody to cheer for, just everyone to dislike. |
 Jeff Ewing | 10 Sep 2015 4:30 a.m. PST |
Why I really dislike East Front WW2 Games – nobody to cheer for, just everyone to dislike. I hear you. I would suggest that the Hungarians made the best of a bad situation. Very interesting discussion. |
| Weasel | 10 Sep 2015 7:25 a.m. PST |
I would submit that a GI sitting in a trench somewhere in Italy were aware of some quite salient differences between the Soviets and the Nazi's: Namely that the Nazi's were throwing grenades at him :) |
| Old Contemptibles | 10 Sep 2015 10:16 a.m. PST |
Operation "August Storm" Manchurian Strategic Offensive, August 9th to 20th, 1945. |
| Fred Cartwright | 10 Sep 2015 11:07 a.m. PST |
How can the Russians lose with T-34s and KV-1s against Pz IIIh's and Pz IVe's? Except the vast majority of Russian tanks weren't KV's and T-34's in 1941 they were BT's and T-26's, and most of them were in a poor state of repair. |
| vtsaogames | 10 Sep 2015 11:24 a.m. PST |
The one that killed the most fascist scum. Agreed, comrade Winston. I'm not sure on numbers but Bagration should be a contender. The alternate name is the Destruction of Army Group Center, which has a nice ring. Along with infantry/armor attacks, armored breakthrough and exploitation, you get cavalry breakthroughs and the last successful mounted charge of WWII. A Guard cavalry corps caught a German infantry regiment detraining behind the line and overran them. It started with sabers and then the cavalry dismounted and winkled out the hard cases with grenades and sub-machine guns. I must say, being asked what my favorite WWII Russian Offensive is seems rather like being asked what my favorite natural disaster is. Big Tsunami? Mt. St. Helens? Katrina? |
