"Not sure where to go from here...." Topic

Ok, before I start this thread lets eliminate one suggestion from the list that I know will be mentioned 10 times despite me saying otherwise.

THE MOLDS WILL NOT BE SOLD OFF TO SOMEONE ELSE.

This is not being stubborn, doing so will mean instant bankruptcy to the other game company and me with it. So I am not even going to reply to this suggestion.

Last fall I had some huge expenses come in. Had to fully replace the roof on the shop. $6,300.00 USD in one month. Also had to replace an aging bed frame and mattress set, washer and dryer, leaking gas tank on the car, and some other odds and ends that took another $2,500.00 USD+ around the time of the roof repair. It took all my reserves and all the mold making money from the company to just get back to normal here.

Slow winter sales last year and dead summer sales this year means that more money is still going out then coming in. I added in the Dastardly Design Games stock to the company in hopes it would sell but they have been slow to move.

I had two releases this summer that I had traded for that were molds ready to spin. They sold a total of… Let me double check my figures here… ZERO. In fact I have not had a sale via the website since April 7th.

I see other companies here talking about downsizing because they can not keep up with processing orders? I have no idea what they are doing that I am not. The more I promote things the less they are selling.

I have a ton of stuff that is mastered in metal ready for production molds, but I look at the sales figures and ask will anyone care whether it is released or not?

I still have Dan's contest stuff that I want to get released and will eventually when and if there is money to do the production molds again.

I wanted to do a kickstarter to help promote the company and fund some of the other molds that are ready to be released, but sales have dried up for the other company as well and money received for molds might be needed just to keep the other business going, so why bother.

Right now 100% of my usable energy is going into trying to keep the bills paid and hope to still be around when the holiday sales start coming in, fingers crossed by the truckload.

I have never found that "must have" product or product line that would kick things off and give me the money needed to play with the 100's of product ideas that I have but can not invest the time and money into doing.

So I really have no idea where to go from here. Something has to change that will bring in sales so that I have the time to do something other then work at paying bills.

So this is where I am at ATM and I am open to constructive ideas that do not require a ton of time and travel.

If you are not selling product, I don't see how selling the molds is going to make anyone go bankrupt. That aside, you carry a few niche figures in a niche hobby. Based on my experience, most people don't want what you have and, if they do want it, they need very little of it. You also do not have an advertising presence, some of the figs on your sight are poorly painted (better to have an ink wash than a poor paint job). Several of your ranges are almost incomplete, with only a single offering per range, while your modern heroes are not well sculpted. If you are going to release a new range, like your 15mm sci-fi range, you better release multiple packs at the same time. Multiple factions with multiple packs is even better. If you can't afford to do that, you probably should not release anything at all. What other people are doing is coming up with interesting time periods that capture the imagination, coupled with the release of multiple packs of very well sculpted figures. My impression is that you went into business without a clear direction, a solid business plan, and insufficient funds. What I think you should do is not what you want to hear.

If you have your own casting facility, consider offering an outsourced casting service for other companies. That may bring in cash to keep things ticking over.

But being brutally honest, if after all this time your lines aren't selling you have to consider there is no demand for your mini lines and quit before your losses keep mounting.

Can I ask, what led you to release a range of fantasy snake people?

I will be ordering shortly. within the next few days. I know it's not much help, but good luck.

Not to tear into you, but your website is just plain bad. Why is there both a products and a store tab? The store section of the website is laid out very poorly with the menu bar too big so that you have to scroll right to get the modern and fantasy links. The pictures in the product section are inconsistent with few painted and the satyrs in the fantasy section only having a group photo at a bad angle that shows no detail. I didn't even know there was a barbarian becuase there is almost a full page of space between the satyrs and him.I'm not bothered by the bare-bones design of the site, but you need better photos and a much better layout.

You also have not enough stock for me to be interested in making multiple orders or any large orders. You have five ratlings in the frontier suns section and the photo is so poor I can't see any details. If I wanted a swarm of ratlings to overwhelm some daunting colonial marines I would have ranks and ranks of completely identical guys swinging a stick with a nail in it, no variety. Most of your lines are like this: one sword man, one spear man, one bow man. Your fantasy lords store page doesn't have the individual photos from the products section, only group photos. Your moderns section is the only one with a good selection of different poses. There is only one pose for each type (one cop, one soldier etc…), which is fine for characters but if I wanted to have six different cops I need to order from someone else. You basically have enough of a selection for me to make one order from you, and no reason for me to come back for more.

If you want to stay in business, my suggestion is find the money to flesh out at least one of these lines. Stop dabbling in five different things and give me a reason to make an order. I'd flesh out your Armies of Arcana line since it has several armies and a rules set. Create a larger social media presence. Go on Facebook, go on different websites, photograph games and write after action reports. Find blogs and painters and pod casts and give away some of your product to get some exposure. Granted I pretty much only play 15mm sci-fi and 28mm WWII, but the only time I've ever heard of you is when you come on here looking for advice. I would go to conventions and run your rules set and sell your minis.

I know you asked for ideas that don't require time or travel (and presumably money), but my impression is that unless you put at least time, and most likely travel and more money into this the only thing you're doing is going bankrupt.

I will PM you with some suggestions.

Dave
wargamingminiatures.com

Make WWII figures. Can't go wrong.

I would also suggest fleshing out the Armies of Arcana stuff. It seems to be your strongest range. Drop everything else until you have more of that.

Do you go to conventions and run games with this stuff? If not start doing that. What shows do you go to?

They aren't the alpha and omega of sales but people have to have some familiarity with the stuff to want to buy it.

@ 79thPA Selling molds = Loss of access to gaming distributors without opening a FLGS again which costs $25 USDK/year. No way to source products means no way to pay bills which means I have no way to make any money.

@McWong73 No I have to contact out the casting. Thane created the snakemen, not me I got them when I bought the molds from him for AoA.

@rvandusen Much appreciated, every sale helps.

@whitphoto Are you volunteering to design a better one?

The barbarian pic is WAY down at the bottom for a reason. It was sold back to the guy who I bought it from. He just did post his new site today here on TMP. TMP link

I tried my best to get a good picture of the ratlings, but all I have here to do that kind of work with is the flat bed scanner and I turned the resolution up as high as it would let me. Holding them in my hands I can't see them any better then what they look in the pictures.

The reason all these lines have never been fleshed out is what I release never pays enough to even buy the first castings out of the molds much less greens, master molds and production molds. Why I have been jumping around is poking different things with a stick to see what might be something that sells more then 10 items and then stops.

And this is why I do not know where to go with this company because even if I had the money to release 1,000 miniatures tomorrow where would I put it? What do I release that is not just going to be no sale again and not get me anywhere despite all that effort?

I do not own the AoA Rules, but I might be able to get them in the future. I said no travel because I get narcoleptic after a few hours in the car, so long trips require me to hire another driver and cons are all mostly 9+ hours away from here. So it makes setting up as a vendor a money losing proposition after hotel rooms, vendor fees, drivers, food, ect. I'd need to rent a large UHAUL truck and take $20 USDk of stock and 10 banquet tables to even think of breaking even.

@StoneMtnMinis Thanks Dave, will check that shortly.

@Wargamer Blue The reason I do not do historical's is I know nothing about them. All I know about WWII is the world lost, no one won anything but heartache and sorrow from any war ever fought.

@Pictors The problem is what to release that will make money. the Lord of fantasy stuff has never paid for a mold, so no idea how many codes it would require to even get near a break even point.

and you probably missed this reply so reposting here.

I said no travel because I get narcoleptic after a few hours in the car, so long trips require me to hire another driver and cons are all mostly 9+ hours away from here. So it makes setting up as a vendor a money losing proposition after hotel rooms, vendor fees, drivers, food, ect. I'd need to rent a large UHAUL truck and take $20 USDk of stock and 10 banquet tables to even think of breaking even.

My good man, if your in this business to make money, then you're in the wrong business. It is simply not possible for a small timer like yourself to make a decent living selling figures.
You have enumerated all the reason why you can't, and yet you refuse to face the truth.

It's just not a money making venture, unless you are a
larger company that sells many, many different products, like Perry or Foundry. One man band garage operations are not going to support you or a family.

The old joke is "how do you make a million dollars in the hobby business."
The answer is "Start with two million."

I own Kings Mountain Miniatures, a niche AWI figure company.
I have invested over 20,000 in sculpting, molds and
figure production.
In three years, I have recovered about one third of that.

But, I did it as a project to satisfy myself. I knew going in that it was a losing deal, but I wanted to do it anyway.
I may get my investment back, over the next ten years.
Maybe not.
I didn't care, because I was not depending on that money to live. I'm retired and have some disposable income available.
You, on the other hand, it seems do not.

Perhaps it's time to face facts.

Concentrate on the fantasy stuff, especially the 15mm as not many people are doing that (that I am aware of) If you cannot afford someone to do decent paintjobs, just ink the bare metal. Rather than use a scanner, you must know someone with a camera? I'd drop the Modern Heroes range, they are pretty awful figures. Regards the website – you don't seem to be able to click on a picture as a link (lots of people do this as habit). Also, to re-iterate (I've just looked at the snakemen page), bare inked metal will look better than those paintjobs which are off putting I'm afraid.

No offense Lone Gunman, but just like last time you asked the same question you have an excuse for why every single suggestion people make won't work. Granted quite a few of the excuses are very valid, but you have no positive response to ANY suggestions anyone makes. You are looking for a magic bullet cure that will some how turn your poor selection of badly advertised product into a million dollar business.

You only have a flatbed scanner to capture images of your product? Too bad no one in American owns a camera, someone might be able to help you if they did…

You don't have the time or money to fix the webpage, which multiple people have complained about over both of the posts you have put up on TMP over the past couple of years. Will I fix it for you? No, because I'm your customer not your business partner. YOU need to convince ME to buy your product, not convince me to feel sorry for your failing business.

You keep releasing one product of five poses for a line and wonder why it doesn't sell. You immediately move on to another line and wonder why that one product doesn't sell. You're collecting lines of miniatures that are destined to fail becuase you can't manage to put more then 3 minutes of effort into making them work.

All you have is reasons to quit, but instead of listening to your own answers you come here again asking for advice you either can't or simply won't listen to. The fact of the matter is that if you can't, for very valid medical reasons, go out and do the conventions or social media work that will be required to get your company more exposure you will need to hire someone to do it. If you can't learn to do HTML or find a student to fix your web page you will need to hire someone to do it. You NEED to flesh out your ranges or no one will buy from you. Aside from the problems with your webpage this is the number one piece of advice people have been telling you.

Without a core group of very generous people who will help you for free you need to invest money into this business. I seemingly can't give you any good advice to help you make money. I can give you some advice on how to guarantee you will stop losing money though. Walk away, drop everything to do with this business and find ANYTHING else to do. Stop throwing good money after bad, realize that all this business will do is make you spend money and you will never make up what you have already lost. To keep going and throwing away more money just because you've already spent so much is a crazy.

That being said, I can actually solve one problem for you to an extent. As a professional photographer I can get you some good images of your product. If you send me samples of what you have I will provide images of them ink washed. I'm NOT a professional painter though, I've never painted fantasy miniatures. It's been a VERY long time since I've worked for free but I would consider the trade of product for services fair enough for one time.

Why do anything?

Sorry to sound contrarian, but let me see if I have this right.

You need LGG in order to keep relationships with distributors (not sure why that is but okay). You need the distributors to source product for your E-bay store. Looking at your E-bay store, if you are going to make a living it will be there, not with LGG.

So why not just leave LGG as it is? Essentially, let it be a ghost town. It won't make you any money so why put any resources in to it? Let it sit so you can keep buying, and focus on your other business? Fill the occasional order but otherwise accept it as a cost of doing business?

It is perfectly possible to make a living with a "one-man garage operation", I do!

But, in the case of LGG you simply don't have enough diversity of products and product lines to attract people to your website.

I would take Extra Crispy's suggestion and concentrate on something that makes you money instead of trying to run a miniatures company that is just causing you problems and stress.

You could invest £500.00 GBP in someone to redo your website and webshop so you can sell the products you sell on ebay on there as well and get some sales without the ebay overhead….

Any business requires investment to get a return.

Mike

Honestly, I never heard of Lone Gunman Games until now, and never visited the website.

Damon.

What I don't understand is why, if you have figures ready to be put in moulds, you don't just run a kickstarter to see if there are any takers for those figures. That seems to be a bit of a no brainer? Just ring fence the money and don't use it to prop up the ailing second business.

Sounds to me like you need to kill one of those two businesses and just concentrate on the one that's most likely to succeed.

Most sales don't come from killer ranges, they come from past customers. Start a new range you may get a spate of orders then… nothing. After a while, the people bought your figures when they first came out will be looking for more figures – if your range has the ones they want and they liked them they will come back. Meanwhile, you need to do two things – extend the range so that you will still have figures they want, also have an ongoing programme of new ranges. It's neverending cycle and it takes investment.

Ranges themselves need two types of figures – run of the mill types you're going to sell loads of – the bulk figures in a regiment – plus enough personality figures to give reasonable sales in that area.

And as said above – buy a camera and avertise.

Most of what folks have mentioned above are ways to promote your product. I know you mentioned that conventions are not possible since most are too far away. But what about Recruits?

Des Moines is about 3 hours from Kansas City and if I am not mistaken, you are south of Des Moines. So maybe a 2 and half hour drive? Getting a dealer table is really inexpensive, like $15.00 USD a table. The trip to Recruits is easily a day trip to avoid Hotel costs. Plan to come down on Saturday, make some sandwiches and head on down. Better yet run a demo game or two using your figures as well. Take pictures and post an AAR on the TMP.

By the way, Recruits is about a week and a half away. September 11-13.

And finding someone to travel with you to a convention should not be that hard. I would think there would be many who would love to share the expense.

Thanks
Duane

link

Exactly what is it that you would like to get from your line of figures, what would make it positive for you? It appears that you have not reached your expectations, but what those expectations are not really clear. It's fine to ask where to how and what to do next, but it really is important to know what you would like to happen. A plan, business or otherwise is important. The line as it stands now obviously is not meeting your expectations. At a glance the line itself seems questionable in making big returns. No need to ask why really, numerous comments have given enough guidance on that. You really need to face the idea that what you are getting out of the line is all that there is to get. Even a redo of the advertising will only give so much increase in return. From your comments it would appear that even 3X increase in sales would make no significant impact on the overall business. You really may need to come to terms with the fact the figures may not have a market for them.

Looking at what you say it would take to do a convention, in terms of stock and truck etc, It leaves me a bit confused on what in the world you have for sale and the size of the items.

Sorry, But I have set up in the past on 4 tables with more inventory than you are talking about now, carrying 3 25mm lines of figures an a resin line, and I could haul it in a trailer.

Also, I don't understand why your not checking out new web sties that are user friendly and asking about a either a decent camera (as others have asked) or using a camera phone, which if you have a smart phone are normally better than a cheap camera.

You may not like my response, but you need to evaluate your business plan and model, which everyone else in this business has been forced to do, because face it, what your doing now, with the same complaint coming now a year later, just shows that the end is near, whether you want to face it or not.

On the website, you could contact a local college and offer an "unpaid internship" to a student who most likely is up to speed on the latest web design tools. You might snag someone willing to do a few dozen hours' worth of work in exchange for being able to put a real gig on their resume and use you for a reference.

Likewise, you can probably find a gamer here with a good camera and photo setup who would take excellent pictures of your products in exchange for being allowed to keep the products. 10 high-resolution snaps of each product line would give you plenty of eye-candy to choose from, and paying someone in miniatures probably won't break your budget.

It appears to be a labor of love.
You may not want to read any further…

Sometimes love is not enough. I wanted to help; however, after looking at the figures I will not be placing an order. I'm not into 15mm and I could not find anything in 25mm that I would want to buy. Better pictures there would not help. If you had a table at a local con I would look but still not buy.

Sorry if that stings, but I'm just being honest.

Well, I am into 15mm (sci-fi, at least). I think you've got a great asset there in terms of the Armies of Arcana; Sandra Garrity is very well known and does great work. I think some better paint jobs and photos would help.

On the sci-fi side, I could see myself buying some of those goth rats, but two things would tend to hold me back: variety and price. With only five sculpts and no heavy weapons, command, specialists, etc., I can't really use them to make an army. And $8.50 USD for five minis is pretty steep, considering I can get 21 minis for $2 USD more at Rebel Minis. On average, 15mm sci-fi minis seem to run 50 to 75 cents each, depending on size and complexity, of course. I think you'll need to increase the value proposition for the buyer, by increasing the variety, decreasing the price, adding specialists and/or vehicles, or some combination of the three.

It's just a ty market to try and make a living in. And just expanding a range won't necessarily help, plenty of large ranges get no love at all.

As for the website,yeah it looks old, but it's not bad. I don't understand the complaints there. You can navigate it which is more than I can say for quite a few more modern websites. And I disagree about the pictures, the newer pics look fine to me. Better paint jobs could work, but don't count on it.

Biggest suggestion is do a Kickstarter, that's the only place money is made in this business these days; promotion and coverage you can't seem to get any other way and instant cash flow.

Second: Reorganize packs. Offer a one of each sculpt in the category pack. A command pack for each army of one or two each of each command or command like figure.

Offer one code for each set, no 12 and 20 panther options for example. Fewer SKUs always help.

Monsters should also have fewer figures in each pack. More sculpt variations for basic units is always good and something to work towards.

And try lowering prices, miniatures are horribly undervalued by the market and 15mm is in a terrible place in that regard.

Three: Forget selling for one rules set. Bluntly, no one cares. Contact all the indy rules set makers and make army packs for them. Mayhem, Mighty Armies, Hordes of the Things, Song of Blades and Heroes and so on.

And the biggest market for figures isn't wargames it's RPGs, try skewing towards that.

I've known about you for awhile, but for me the main problem is pack size. I don't want three Amazon Queens, six owlbears, or 20 of the same bowman.

And going to conventions isn't necessarily a deal breaker, lot's of other retailers we talk to are having hard times recently. Sales at a number of conventions are down from a year or two ago, sometimes to the point of us losing money.

Try getting news stories up on Tabletop gaming news, Tabletop Fix, and Wargames News and Terrain. And try posting some game/army pics in some of the big forums like Lead Adventure Forum.

PS: Is it possible to buy individual casts, like I said, not interested in big packs at the moment.

Sorry for the delay, had to try and sell apples today at the farmers market. I have several bushels here and only ended up selling 4 lbs. I gave more away then I sold today.

Since most asked about the camera I will answer that here. I have owned a total of 4 digital cameras. The first one that lasted the longest stopped working once I changed it to take macro pics of mini's. The next 3 stopped functioning after 1-2 uses. I got sick and tired of paying over $100 USD for a digital camera that was only going to last a day or two and then die. So I bought an Ipad to take pics of the larger stuff for ebay which is mostly what I needed it for. You can not take macro pics with it without a special lens and the camera on this one is not centered properly so I figured that the lenses would not work anyway.

My camera skills are even worse then my marketing skills. I refuse to take film pictures at all anymore. They always end up a brown smudge across the front of the picture and that is not my fingers in the lens either. I am a disaster witha camera, but at least with a digital I can see the bad pics before paying to have them developed.

@nevinsrip I never figured this would make me a millionaire, but I did expect it to learn to feed itself as far as paying for a mold or two every year.

@alien Hello again, long time no hear. I have tried other Genre's simply because no one was buying the fantasy. I got the Modern Heroes cheap because all I had to do was pay for production molds to be remade on them, There one of the few things that have nearly paid for themselves. I added the new painted pics of the snakemen, but the guy forgot to take single pics, and they got "borrowed" and not returned, so I have not had any time to try and get new bare metal images.

@whitphoto Yes I know everyone keeps raging on the website, but that can not be 100% of the problem because you look at companies like peter pig who are still using there 1995 website with 75% of there figures not even photographed and there still selling figures and there still releasing new stuff. I added new painted photo's to the site, I made a lot of the changes that were suggested, and what happened? Sales have disappeared all together.

This say to me that its not the figures, its not the website, its something that I am lacking as far as marketing skills go. And I am the first to admit I do not know what I am doing with marketing. This is why ebay had worked so well for me it was a post it and forget it set up, but even that is failing me ATM.

@Extra Crispy I have to have to be either a brick and mortar store or a manufacturer to keep accounts with all the US distributors for Comics/Games/Hobbies in the US. A brick and mortar is $12,000 USD USD/year rent+utilities, and the last time I tried I was loosing $1,000 USD/month in stock via thefts so just having a couple releases every year to keep up appearances is a bargain since my sales were less then $150.00 USD/month in the brick and mortar here. In Iowa without a college town your market is maybe 0.1% in a 10K people county. Better to Bleed a little cash then to hemorrhage it at both ends.

I also need to make the move away from ebay, and if the problems with this company are the same I will have doing that then I have a huge problem with no idea what the question is much less the answer.

@Black Hat Its not really causing me any problems and stress. So far the ones I have listed on ebay have not sold there either. Lets put it this way. If you went to the hardware store and bought paint and painted your house and the rain washed it all off, but you did not know why. Then you went and bought different paint and this time it all pealed off, so you went and bought another kind and this one all came off in a powder wouldn't you want to know why you could not get the paint to stay on your house???? This is what I am trying to find out. If I do not know where I am going wrong anything else I try to do online may suffer from the same unidentified problem.

@Garand I hear this all the time and its just more proof that the marketing I do is not going anywhere.

@Mike Bravo Miniatures I was prepared to do so last June, but Ebay died. I only did about $1,500 USD in sales that month and that did not cover the bills for the ebay store. If I had not dumped stock here at a discount I would have been out of business. What is the point in doing a kickstarter if I have to use the money for something other then the kickstarter? Its just going to make the problem worse.

@GarrisonMiniatures That was the idea, problem is the cycle never got started. Even when I only needed to sell a handful to break even on a 28MM release it did not happen. If I could make back 50% of the cost of a release I would not be worrying about this.

@Syr Hobbs DM is about an hour away. I have not been there in 6 years? I have not done cons for the same reason I have not done ren fairs. The time and energy requirements because of my health issues would mean doing a 6 month advanced plan to go so that everything would be packed. Right now all the stock is just in bags labeled what they are and to make it worth going I would need to take ebay stock as well. I do not have any tables or displays to put stuff on once I got there. Physically I am not able to pack it all up, load it, unload it, set it up, repack it, load it back up, bring it home and unload it again. I needed to do a garage sale this year, but without a garage I have the same issue and its not going to get done. When I got up this morning I had so much lower back pain I felt like someone tried to cut me in half.

@Morning Scout My wants from the company were simple. A modest but steady stream of sales that would allow me to eventually have a monthly release schedule. Even if this was simply one figure a month. I never asked to be Reaper or GW. Frankly that seems like to much like work IMHO.

@Miniatureships For it to be worth my time to travel 3-4 states away just to set up for a weekend at a convention I would need to take 1/3 to 1/2 of my inventory from both business's So I would need about 10-8 foot tables and I would be stocking board games, CCG's, action figures, hot wheels, Trading cards, ect. and I would need to do at least $10 USDk in two days or the whole thing would not be worth the time to prep and go for. I have a 4 room house overflowing with stock that I know would require a small box truck to transport. And I'd have to hire people to load/unload and set up, so there is that added cost above the trip and vendor fees alone.

I really have no idea what a user friendly website looks like I guess. Mine is laid out a lot like reapers and other companies that do just fine despite there website. Frankly most of the new "cool" websites I can't find what I am looking for on them and no idea how anyone else is. The other issue is if I can't update the website myself then its as useless as giving a blind person a new car. I was just talking to another site owner who is not on TMP that google said his site was hacked and blocking me from seeing it. I finally got it to load and found a text link for drugs at the VERY bottom. Despite having 2 different web designers look at the issue he site is still blacklisted via google. So I do not see as having someone else do it is working so well for him either.

@VCarter No worries. I have never played historical's so I fully understand that I can't sell something to every gamer out there.

@ javelin98 Mega mini's did some others in this range, but the person I got the molds from did not have them. So there are others like them out there somewhere. And if the cycle of selling never starts why would I add anything to these?

Looking at there price and what these cost to cast I could not even break even charging that price.

@wolfgangbrooks I have a sample pack with one of each figure in most of the main ranges. The reason I do not do singles by themselves is the shipping will end up way out off of what it is cause the minimum is 1 ounce and some of these are 1/20 of an ounce and its going to wreck the costs of them even more.

I have some of these in Mighty armies already. Mike is the only person buying them ATM. Problem is if I lower the prices then I will not be able to afford to put them in mighty armies anymore. having to contract out the casting means things are more expensive for me.

I do post to TGN and a couple others, but I do not have any gaming pics to show. I have not rolled a set of dice since 2006 at a retailers convention. No one here to play with and no time to paint anything up and make it look presentable.

"What is the point in doing a kickstarter if I have to use the money for something other then the kickstarter? Its just going to make the problem worse."

I think you're missing the point there – the point is that you *don't* use the money for other things (that would be fraud for a start). The Kickstarter would be to see if the figures have any future, the funds would stay for the figures lines to get them moulded and sold. How can it make it worse? If it succeeds you get an instant cash injection that covers new moulds, possibly new figures, all with no risk to you as you have the guaranteed sales. Sure, use any 'profit' on the other business, but the KS funds primarly cover the figures.

But if all you are wanting is the cash to use for something else, then that suggests (a) you don't actually want to get a viable figures line off the ground (b) your other business is not viable either.

So rationalise your business(es). You will go mad (and broke) trying to turn around two failing businesses at the same time.

"Yes I know everyone keeps raging on the website, but that can not be 100% of the problem because you look at companies like peter pig who are still using there 1995 website with 75% of there figures not even photographed and there still selling figures and there still releasing new stuff."

They have an excellent product with an established reputation. Their ranges are deep, and well supported with good rules and new releases. They're not coming from a position of trying to establish a market presence. Those of us who are, *must* to do things differently.

But you are right, the website isn't 100% of the problem and a whizzy website won't make much of a difference if people just do not want to buy your figures. Your ranges are simply incomplete (which brings us back to the KS…).

Bluntly, the figures side of your business will continue to fail/do nothing without a successful KS if you don't have the capital to invest in it. So stop trying, and concentrate on making the other parts of your business work (as it sounds like you have bigger fish to fry with that one if you have a house full of stock and flat sales)

If you need to maintain the fiction of being a figure manufacturer, just keep the status quo and don't give this side of things another serious thought (or penny).

My impression is that you don´t have anything that could even just remotely be called a strategy.
With that conclusion, you´re back to asking the fundamental questions – what is my position in the market? What is your goal? How do you want to achieve that goal and how much are you willing to spend doing so?

Boiling it down to your situation:
What´s your position in the market?
You´re essentially a startup with no established range. You´re testing the water with several ranges, none of which seem to have caught. You´re not well known, face strong established competition and will have to offer a unique product / USP (unique selling point).

Your question to be answered: What IS you unique selling point? What are you offering that others don´t do better?
Hint: It´s NOT an extensive range, it´s NOT a unique purchasing experience on a state of the art website and according to the reviews in this thread, it´s NOT the unique quality of your figures.
Why should people prefer YOUR figures over all the other choices?

What is your goal?
Here, your answers are conflicting. On the one hand, you´re stating that you want to keep the mini operation to keep access to your producers.
On the other hand, you obviously want to see returns from your miniature ranges as you´re intend on recouping your investments and get to break even.

Question to be answered: What´s your priority? Keeping accounts or operating a viable miniature company? This becomes important on the next step:

How do you want to achieve that goal and how much are you willing to invest?

If you´re only interested in keeping accounts with distributors, you just need to keep up the facade of producing and selling minis. No further investment required.

If you want to build a viable miniature company, you will have to formulare a strategy, focus your effort and make some investments.
Check if your plans are realistic though.

One possible solution is in-sourcing your mould making operations and offer a competitive casting service to other start-ups to recoup your investments here. This will significantly lower your own mould making costs and add a second source of revenue. Some learning and dedication is required here though.

Second possible solution is to think long and hard how you can a) improve your sales (investing in some top-notch figures that are in high demand, flesh out your ranges, offer a kickstarter to raise funds, many suggestions have been brought up!) and b) decrease your cost.

I´m not sure what you´re doing if the costs of your moulds are so high that you cannot recoup them by the sale of a few hundred miniatures? You don´t need "master moulds" and "production moulds" if you´re offering a small volume of products. A single mould with one figure of each pose will suffice, and you can stuff a lot of different 15mm poses into a single mould that should cost you less than 100 bucks if your US prices are not ridiculously different from the european market rates.
The high cost of hiring the sculptors is the only aspect that remains to be solved. You´ll have to be creative to get around this – find some less well known artists that are willing to do a decent job for a smaller fee. Think about possibilities to circumvent the high up-front cost for sourcing masters or offer services for payment (i.e. offer casting services at cost prices for your in-house sculptors and propose to offer their private hobby-projects in your shop) – find out what works and what does not!

But adjust your budget according to these plans! Don´t make the mistake of thinking that you can turn into Games Workshop by investing nothing.
Whatever strategy you choose, think about your budget and make a realistic assessment on your plans.

Right now, you´re in a downward spiral. You either find a way out, or you´ll slowly go broke if you don´t.

Cheers,
Robert

We've been here before, and it seems you have the same problems a couple of years later.

You have no business plan, no strategy and no vision.

Importantly, you recognise your lack of skills in a number of areas, yet refuse to accept outside help (paid or free) to resolve them.

As a result you are throwing good money after bad.

You really need to step back and take a long hard look at what you are trying to do.

An example is the digital camera. If you've spent money on 4 cameras at $100 USD a pop you've wasted your money four times over. A $100 USD camera is not going to be good enough to take photos of 15mm figures. You need to spend more like $400 USD – I spent £300.00 GBP on a single camera four years ago for photos of 28mm figures. Its still working and I can take thousands of photos. If you spent money and the cameras didn't work then you should at least have taken them back for a refund.

Having done up two houses, plus my wargaming activity, having the right tools for the job halves time and effort, and in the long run saves money.

You really need to step back and take a long hard look at what you are trying to do.

Target Markets.

You've previously admitted not knowing what people play, not knowing the games people play etc.

That's the start point. You need to do some basic market research of what games people are playing.

As others have said, you should focus on 15mm Fantasy. I play 28mm fantasy, but (a) know HOTT is a key game and (b) Sandra Garrity is a good sculptor. Cruise some of the forums and work out what is hot and what it not.

Target gaps in the market and or the lucrative best sellers.

At the moment it seems you are throwing darts at the wrong wall, when the dart board is behind you, and indulging in vanity projects.

Getting Help

Get some business college students to help write a business plan. You can also buy the Dummy's Guide to Starting a Business.

Get some computer students to help rebuild the website – there are elementary mistakes like dropped cases, spelling mistakes etc.

Ditto local photography students – the photos of the figures are all over the place in terms of quality and state of painting. Simply choose whether to have an entire range painted, or simply resolve to go with unpainted raw metal that is black inked.

In all these cases, the students will probably do this all for free, because it will look good on their CV, as relevant work experience. They will have to work as a team, they will have to have their work published so its all good for them.

If you don't feel competent to vet their work for quality I am sure I and others will do it for free. As you are in the USA, then having a foreign (UK) based referee for their work will make it look even better.

I agree with most of the above, especially nevinsrip's quote of "how to make a million dollars selling miniatures – start with two million dollars".

Companies will set up a website for you for free. See the TV, or on-line ads. Then, they charge you a monthly fee going forward to maintain it, and to recoup their development costs.

Consider that, if you think it is worthwhile.

As for the photos, give people some samples and let them keep them, in exchange for high resolution, macro images of the minis, in either plain metal, or inked, as you prefer, and as they are willing to do.

Poorly painted figs will probably kill off, rather than enhance sales, so plain bare metal is probably better.

Forget traveling to shows. For most, the return on investment and for your time will only be worth it if your miniatures are in very high demand.

Fuel, lodging, food, and table space can all be very expensive for a small timer.

You could see if a local retailer, or retailers would be willing to carry some, or all of your lines, or to take them to shows to display and sell, on your behalf. Obviously though, there'd need to be some economic incentive(s) for them.

Right now, it is a very tough market, and a lot of companies are having a difficult time. Surplus funds for miniatures and gaming are tight for many still, due to the poor economy, and a number of companies have gone belly up.

The Kickstarter is probably your best bet for seeing if your line(s) are viable, and for generating revenue in advance.

You need to consider all/most of the above seriously, or cut your losses.

No sense worrying about the miniatures business if it isn't working out for you. Find another hobby, and/or revenue stream that does provide you with some income, if the sale of miniatures isn't working.

Just visited your website, and I think it looks okay. Not great, and could be a lot better, but it is serviceable.

You might clarify that you offer a flat-rate shipping fee for small orders, and list that price, and then that other shipments over "X" weight will cost "Y".

Without that, I suspect a lot of people on the fence about ordering minis just may not decide to do so.

Looks like you offer quite a variety of minis, but as mentioned, little depth to your ranges, in many cases. The exception seems to be the Amazonians, IIRC – good variety of poses there.

You could also see if people selling new rules would be willing to sell you some ad space in the backs of their publications, so you get a little more exposure. Placing ads in miniature wargaming mags might be helpful too, but your own website is probably your best bet.

For the modern range, if you were to offer a few more martial arts figs poses, you might be able to sell those to people that need figs for their fighting rules, and/or for covert spy rules. Of course, that means more cash outlay for sculpting, molds, etc., so that may not be realistic at this point.

Upgrading the pics of some of your miniatures is probably your best, low-cost option.

Oh, and opening up a brick-and-mortar store would be financial suicide. Even major retailers are closing those, so don't make that mistake.

Good ideas Mako11 – maybe LGG should consider working with another retailer so they carry his lines of miniatures.

In the UK, many dealers at games shows carry several manufacturers lines – saves the little businesses the hassle, and gives the retailers a much wider range of stock.

@Mike Bravo I think you missed the point. I put the kickstarter plans on hold because the ebay business is taking 200% of its profits to keep going ATM. There was no guarantee that the money raised via kickstarter right now would go towards mold making, so I shelved it until things either improve or implode entirely on ebay.

I really need to move off ebay into a stand alone webstore for that company, but if these same sales problems with LGG follow it and I do not know what is causing them then it is just as fruitless a proposition. Ebay keeps sending traffic away and capping the ammount of sales I can make a month holding me back from sales that should be mine.

@Black Guardian I have never set any goals because I have never gotten my feet planted under me to have a base to build upon.

I have no place to set up molding/casting EQ and no idea how to cut a mold if I had one here to be honest. The cost of adding the equipment and learning how to use it would fund whatever ideas that I have for the company right now. Being a full time casting/mold making service was never in my plan to start with.

Please define what exactly a top-notch figures is???? I had the barbarian on war cat. I only needed to sell a handful to beak even and only sold two. I personally would not know a top-notch figures if it hit me in the head.

molding costs are not the problem sales are the problem. When you release a miniature and they sell zero, and three years later they have still sold zero it does not matter what the molds cost. The best sales I had on release were the monkeymen with clubs and they only sold 48 pieces (12 sets). They have not sold much since then maybe 2-3 sets. This is why I tried 28MM more money per sale/less sales to break even.

This is why I know the problems can not all be placed on the website, or the pictures, or the paint jobs, or the cart, or how there packed out, or a dozen other things.

I have to be doing something wrong, me personally and it drives me nuts because I do not even know what the question is that I need to be asking. And it drives me nuts that whatever I am not doing wrong will spill over into any other business's I start as well.

about 90% of the stuff I have is from Whiff Whaff, I already know I can't afford Sandra as a sculptor.

I specifically said I did NOT want to be GW.

@Giles the Zog Yes I know were back here again. I never left because the things I changed that were suggested have only made it worse.

$400 USD for something that only takes pictures? I can't afford that right now. Back when I was spending $100 USD on a camera I was only using it 1-2 times a year, so when I picked it back up again the warranty was out and it was not functioning again.

I have tried to target markets. Problem is the stuff everyone says they want so badly they do not open there wallets for when it comes out. I keep seeing other say this as well don't make it cause everyone on forum X says they need it cause they never buy anything we made they needed.

I had the business development guy at a nearby college do a business plan for me about 1990 for a music store I wanted to open. I asked him where he got his "marketing date" to figure out the projected sales for the business plan. He admitted they were 100% made up BS to make the numbers work for the bank. So not wasting more time doing that again.

If the newly painted figures for the AOA line and Lord of Fantasy line are not good enough then I give up on painted stuff because I am not hiring a golden demon sword winner to paint pics for the website just to not hear the painted pics are not good enough.

I had bare metal and everyone kept harping they needed to be painted. I can't win on this one at all. Now I understand why peter pig and other do not have pictures of them at all. Its not worth the grief at some point.

local retailer? how close is local? there is less then 5 game shops in the state of Iowa. Less then 25 comic shops in a state with 99 counties. There is no local here only go to Helen Hunt for it.

I don't do flat rate shipping, no one orders enough to pay that much when figured via weight.

Tried for two years to get someone to carry these to cons and finally gave up. Rudy was the last one to ask, but I could never get him to say yes I want them.

@The Enigmatic Baron Trapdoor I agree 100% Some days this is the answer to everything.

you do hot wheels? Now that's interesting as I collect those too :-)

Ate you EVER going to listen to helpful suggestions and not shoot them down with a ready made excuse.
It seems to me you have two choices.
1) Sell everything off.
2) Continue what you are doing and wallow in self pity.

You keep asking for advice but do not want to take any of it. Maybe it's time to give up.

@Alien Yes I just started doing them this year.

@Winston AKA JohnOFM So far the advice that I have followed has not helped, but only made things worse, therefore I assume its not the root of the problem.

There is something else I can't see that I am missing and there missing it too or we'd have this figured out by now.

Okay, so you don't trust business students because of that bad experience. Fair enough. But what about the other suggestions, about photography students and computer students? ESPECIALLY the suggestion about photography students -- like you said, buying a high-end camera yourself would be way too expensive, but the photography student would have his/her own high-end camera or at least have access to one.

Getting the services of a photography student is your chance to get free or very cheap photos (1) taken with a high-quality camera and (2) taken by someone who is not a self-admitted klutz at using cameras.

I've some unpleasant observations, but hopefully they might be helpful. Before the practical suggestions above, I believe there is a fundamental shift in mindset needed first:

You've asked for advice, so now consider it carefully before you immediately reject it. Don't let your pride influence your assessment of advice. Reassess your prejudices (eg., if digital cameras are so bad, why does everyone use them? If your advertising is so good, why have so many people not heard of you?)

Many of the small businesses I've seen die did so because the owner cannot be told anything. You come off sounding like one of them.

@LGG re-read my (and others) comment WRT images of the figures.

link

The pictures you have on your website range from dire to good. There is no cohesion. Some of them seem to be base coated, some daubed by blind children, and some done pretty well. Not all of them are on bases, and none of them are properly based (flocked etc).

This gives a very uneven and incoherent sense to what looks like a decent range of figures.

Either:
- get them photo'd in raw metal/black inked
- OR get them painted up in the same "house" style.

If you look at Foundry and Copplestone web sites, these are the two options they favour – and lets face it they are very good companies whose figures fly off the shelves (and yes Mark Copplestone is a one man band, plus his wife and kids!).

You mention that Peter Pig does not have 100% photos – true. Again, not being a 15mm gamer (except for sic fi) even I have heard of them, and know they come with an excellent track record of quality. Given a good name and a large amount of figures people will easily take a punt on unseen figures. People will not take a punt on an unknown manufacturer, whose photos are at best middling.

As for the cost of the camera, as I said, do it once, properly to get the right tools for the job. I tried to cut corners when doing up the first house, and bought a £50.00 GBP work table/saw bench. It was rubbish. It was not sturdy enough, nor easy to fold away. I ended up spending £100.00 GBP on a proper work table about 2 months later.

Oh, and my camera also has video capability.

As others have commented, getting in a photography student means they supply the tools and they will have invested in this.

If you are only taking a few photos a year, then you aren't updating your website/portfolio/blog enough. I'm taking at least a dozen every week for my blog, and I'm not even trying to sell any figures. On a particularly busy week if I have a gaming session then I'll take a 100 or more photos.

On which subject…

Target Markets

You claim to have looked into this. Yet in other interviews (yes I googled you), you claim not to have gamed much for years and haven't kept abreast of the developments in games.

If you have done any market research – you've missed by a country mile.

Not being a regular gamer (if a gamer at all) you have a major problem in "engaging" with your customers.

I found that at least one gamer has painted up and used your figures, and posted them here on TMP. The photos look way better than the ones on your website. You should have immediately contacted them and asked to use their photos as a posting on your web site (that's marketing) at the very least.

Similarly, as others have commented, you should be in contact with gamers to ask for AARs that feature your figures, regardless of game system. It's all good marketing.

I couldn't find your recent releases being advertised here on TMP either, maybe I am missing something ?

Outsourcing, Support & Help

You recognise you don't have key skills in some areas – great. It's not a weakness it's a strength to know where to draw the line. Now you ned to get in those skills.

You claim to have been misled once, more than 20 years ago by a business man in a different market trying to do a different exercise and therefore reject all business students out of hand. Once, I got stiffed by a garage mechanic, but that does not mean I now reject all garage mechanics' views of what is wrong with my car.

People on here have offered to help you, and offered to help vet the input from students. Everyone at some point will have been ripped off – but you seem to be repeatedly ripped off. At least we are offering help in public, and can be held to account.

Painters have offered to paint your figures in return for those items. If you don't want to get ripped off, simply make an agreement with them figures = pictures, and if they don't cough up, name and shame here on TMP. Obviously check the quality of their painting beforehand, and insist on a "house" style with minimum requirements of painting, basing and photography.

You need help, we're offering it,

Either take it !

Or as other have said, it's time to shut up shop as you clearly do not have the skills to run this business profitably.

Finally…Distributors

I may have used the wrong language WRT retailers. Based in the UK, so it may be different in the rebel colonies, many of the distributors and retailers who attend games shows/conventions carry multiple manufacturers.

For example, Dave Thomas (DT) in the UK carries Foundry, Perry and Copplestone. Whilst Foundry are probably big enough and ugly enough to do their own stands at shows, the Perry's and Copplestone aren't big enough (in terms of back office support).

So by getting DT to attend the shows with their lines, they don't have to attend but their products are available – they just churn out X amount of product and let DT get on with it. In return DT ensures he has a stand packed full of product across a wide range of genres and scales.

Yes DT and other distributors will take a % cut. He covers his costs, they get the distribution.

But at the moment, you have
zero distribution = zero income.

Sorry, I have to disagree with some of the suggestions here about asking a student to provide photos / a website / a business plan *for FREE* in return for the experience.

You get what you pay for.

Besides, the OP isn't giving away those minis for free--why should people provide their labor at no cost to him? It's insulting to think that someone should not charge for their work.

Labor in exchange for product or other services like casting is fine, but there needs to be some kind of mutual benefit.

<Hug>

(yes I googled you)

And the thing is, we had to. Your original post had no link! You're generating buzz with this thread, but making potential customers work to find out about you. Many just won't. Especially after you seek their advice and then tell them they are all wrong.

The only link you did provide in this thread was to a figure you don't own any more, which, unfortunately, was the only figure on your page I wanted to buy once I knew you existed.

Besides, the OP isn't giving away those minis for free--why should people provide their labor at no cost to him? It's insulting to think that someone should not charge for their work.

Yes how silly of me, I shall immediately stop all work on the local community shop web site we are setting up, and the council website, because neither are paying me.

I will also stop helping charities, struggling enterprises and so on.

Well done for insulting thousands of community volunteers around the world.

@Targeting Markets:

I think this is your biggest problem. You don´t have experience, neither in the gaming segment nor in the collector segment of the miniature market. You openly stated that you could not recognize a top-notch miniature or a bad sculpt.

If you haven´t played Wargames in years and didn´t paint miniatures for ages, you´ll fail big time. You simply don´t know the market, you don´t know what people demand and how to set yourself apart from other producers. All your other problems just come on top of that.

Would you ever buy a car from a dealer who obviously has no idea of cars? An IT advisor who doesn´t know anything about IT? You need a basic idea of the market to succeed. It´s the prerequisite to answering the essential questions for your business model.