"Team Yankee tanks and afv's" Topic

New previews from Breakthrough Assault

Taken from here: link

Lovely! And largely looking like plastic fantastic – the MBTs, anyway…

Summary of what's new then….with what I think the variants are

M163
M901
M1
M109A2

BMP-1
BMP-2
2-S-1
SA-13
ZSU-23-4V1
T-72M1
BM-21

Those look good.

My East German commanders will be pleased.

Sadly, no M60A1 debuted.

Yeah, agreed. But it's a start.
Pretty sure the Shilka is resin.

I MIGHT be tempted.

Why are T-72's featured if T-64 was the most common MBT of GSFG?

Has to do with the novel, wich they sadly seem to be following a bit to much.. Would have loved T-64 or T-80 instead.
Still good for other warpac nations and follow on forces though. I suppose that one can come up with a narrative including a build-up of forces before the conflict as well.

I hope we will see upgraded T-55s (AM & stuff) in the next wave alongside M60A1s.

How about some BTR60's

Now we need some East German decals

Team Yankee isn't facing GSFG, that was the BAOR and the Germans.

And just do what I plan to, use T64's as proxies in the hope they sort the lists out.

Depends on if Team Yankee was in V Corps or VII Corps. It is never quit clear in the book, but I lean towards V Corps as IIRC the axis of advance for the NATO counter offensive for planning purposes was Berlin and the Baltic Coast.

I use T-72 to proxy for T-64, but I am playing Brigade commander in 3mm, where every base is a company, so does not matter quit as much.

link

I also use generic T64/T72, but essentially it means Team Yankee were fighting NVA panzer divisions. There were some very odd ideas around about who had T72 back in the day, and it filtered into various aspects of media. Iirc the old Microprose game M1 Tank Platoon had the same thing (and threw in T80 too).

"Now we need some East German decals".

Agreed, and in both 1/100th and 1/144th scales!

Oh, Dom……..

By all means give your Soviets T-64s, as you won't need models for them – the majority would have shed their tracks crossing the hard standing outside the tank sheds, and those that made it would have broken down as soon as they started up the loading ramps….

Mako, we'll need both diamond shape for aircraft and round for vehicles! In 1/300 too, while we're wishing.

I don't th8nk the T64 had any more issues than the Tiger and Panther had at Kursk. We are fortunate to have never found out how good/bad the T64 would gave been in combat!

But yeah, a lot would likely have been utter crud.

Yep, I definitely need some for the aircraft.

I made some 1/300th and 1/600th aircraft ones a while back, but sadly when the PC crashed, I lost the images. If not, I would have just scaled them up a bit.

The ones for my Mig-29s do look pretty good though. Just painted up a pair of them to see if I liked the paints I was using. I think they turned out pretty well, so need to do a few more.

Love those East German Migs in their earth tone scheme, as a change from the standard Soviet gray and green one.

I need to paint up some of the 1/600th ones I've got, too.

Why are T-72's featured if T-64 was the most common MBT of GSFG?

because the US thought that the T72 was the replacement?

Not to mention that the Team Yankee book has the M1s fighting T72s…

I don't th8nk the T64 had any more issues than the Tiger and Panther had at Kursk

Panthers at Kursk is a really good analogy to the T64 in the first week or so of WW3 – powerful and fast on paper, but hampered by severe mechanical problems when first committed to battle, and not enough time to get things right – good one mate!

"By all means give your Soviets T-64s, as you won't need models for them – the majority would have shed their tracks crossing the hard standing outside the tank sheds, and those that made it would have broken down as soon as they started up the loading ramps"

By all means get your T-72 but badge them as NVA not Russian because the Russians did not have them in Europe! No need for Brits at the weekends as we were all lashed!!!

In the 80s we studied plenty of exercises t all levels with no problems with the T-64 performance. One slide we used to show the reliability of Russian kit was a broken down BMP-1 that a BRIXMIS crew were helping to fix!

"because the US thought that the T72 was the replacement?
Not to mention that the Team Yankee book has the M1s fighting T72s…"

Again in the early 80s the Big Soviet 7, according to the US, included the T-72 as the MBT.

Remember Team Yankee is a work of fiction and even with talk on a move NE towards Berlin, still no mention of T-80. It is getting to sound like the historians at FOW are trying to re-write history according to their love of the T-72!!

Tally Ho!

No idea, but we have been selling rather a lot of both T-64s, T-72s and T-80s in the last couple of months…

It shows the lack of depth of their research, though again if its just a starting point then they're highly likely to go the full monty on the period and get it right later, if only because it will sell more models. They're testing the waters and we'll see how this pans out over the next few years.

Yawn, still going on about what tank should be where? 10 out of 10 for consistency guys. Now, all together,…based…..on….the….book…….

See, if you say it slowly it sinks in a little bit better. Now, go ahead, you try.

Not everyone has read the book. I have a copy on its way to me though.

It's not too bad. The bit where the Team 2iC goes all "kill 'em all" distracted from a fun read, never felt authentic. I think Coyle was quite optimistic on NATO's performance, and if irc it ends with the cop out "and there was a coup in Moscow, which deposed the evil Soviet warmongers".

Red Army had even less tread head detail, but was a more interesting read.

I just read Ghost Fleet, which I found to be vastly more credible than most period cold war fiction. The serial killer widow was a bit much though.

@McWong73, don't forget Coyle just used Sir John Hackett's framework from "The Third World War", which ended with a lucky coup in Moscow after Birmingham, Uk and Misk were both destroyed by nuclear weapons.

T-72's could be found in the Western USSR probably slated for reinforcing GSFG, so you can squint and use them.

This is one reason why I like to play at a higher level, I can gloss over T-72/64 differences. Plus the Soviets have a much better chance of winning a wargame when you are packing an entire regiment plus all of the divisional and army level support you should have…

Gunny B, folks are well aware it is based on a work of fiction, with fictional orbats so not really a historical game is it.

In the real world back in the day the wrong id of a piece of kit could have led to a few problems, which is why recognition was an important skill not just what a piece of kit was but where it fitted in to the ORBAT. Slackers who did not care often made good stores clerks,

Tally Ho!

Reading TY at the moment. What I find odd is how "dumb" the soviets are portrayed. I am starting a mini project to write up TY from a Soviet perspective, similar to my idea of turning the Armor School vignettes around and writing them from the OPFOR perspective

I'd advise anyone who took Soviet exercises as reflective of their operational capability to read Viktor Suvorov's 'The Liberators – Inside the Soviet Army'. This guy was a Soviet Tank Company Commander during the middle period of the Cold War who defected to the US. He makes it clear that exercises were staged, usually by specially equipped 'court' divisions, to impress the West, and the Politburo, to a degree that made the Potemkin villages look like unvarnished fly on the wall reporting…

Remember, an officer in a Soviet unit who made a habit of reported anything to be less than perfect was effectively writing off his career. The bulk of Soviet armour was never used on exercise for fear of wearing it out, those vehicles seen on film and exercises were purposely maintained dedicated training vehicles.

Its fairly clear that the reason the T-55, and latterly the T-72, were so popular is that, possibly quite by chance, they were the only Soviet MBTs that were mechanically reliable without needing extraordinary maintenance efforts…

Of course you also need to bear in mind he defected, therefore it was now in his interest to paint the Soviet war machine in a particular light that kept him of interest to US intelligence.

Agreed CAG19, I've seen "AI" in early RTS games act smarter than the Soviets are portrayed in nearly all of the cold war gone hot books I've read. Getting my hands on the Effect trilogy soon, heard that's one of the better book series.

Aware of the relationship between Coyle and Hackett's work. One of the reasons I can't quite find either especially credible. Fun though, and fingers crossed will make for a fun game.

"He makes it clear that exercises were staged, usually by specially equipped 'court' divisions, to impress the West, and the Politburo, to a degree that made the Potemkin villages look like unvarnished fly on the wall reporting…"

And they featured in some of the classic videos that we used to watch and show, Zapod 80 springs to mind. Massive spectacularly staged performances every now and then panning to the General staff in their command post watching and congratulating each other!

Tally Ho!

So…let's say that a gaming buddy of mine wanted to start buying the MBTs for each side. I should advise him to get M1's and T72's?

Depends what he wants to do. We haven't seen the rules/scenarios yet (although we can already supply M1, M1IP, T-64 and T-72) ;-)

M1's with the 105mm gun, but really at this scale it won't matter. T72's, which version is up to your taste as the rules are all the same.

If he wants to be accurate to the book, Abrams and T72s.

Accurate to what the US intelligence was predicting, Abrams and T72s.

Historically accurate, mostly Abrams on the American side, with occasional M60s of all 3 types. Warsaw Pact forces got T72s, actual Soviet forces T64 or T80.

I'm getting awfully tempted to run M60A2s.

Of course you also need to bear in mind he defected, therefore it was now in his interest to paint the Soviet war machine in a particular light that kept him of interest to US intelligence.

Very true – cynical, but true!

Actually I find him a credible source – it gels with what is emerging from modern Russian historians about Zhukov and the Russian higher staff in the last couple of years of the Eastern front in WW2 – with the exception of Rokosovsky, most of them make the British WW1 generals we love to hate look like innovative and imaginative superstars!

I think the problem is that the more time goes by, and the more information from other sources becomes available, the less credible he seems to appear.

IIRC, Geoff's being modest too, and can probably provide you with T-80s as well, if you want those also.

M60A1s were the most prevalent, at least in the early 1980s. Not sure how many were upgraded, or what percentage were M60A3 by the mid-1980s.

Of, and don't tell Geoff I said this, but to me, the T-64s, T-72s, and T-80s all look very similar at a distance, so can probably be used interchangeably. Only the real treadheads will know, or care, I suspect.

I've got some 1/144th scale T-54s which will also be doubling as T-55s as well, since they look very similar too, in the smaller scales. The most visual difference to me are the storage box arrangements on the fenders, so not really a deal breaker.

Mako, indeed and reminds me of two distinctive types in the 80s,

the RA AD chaps – If it flys it dies and those of us for whom recognition, equipment development and tactics was bread and butter – "Look a ruby" "ah not just any ruby that is from a T-55" (And it is still in one of my drawers!

Tally Ho!

You have rubies in your drawers…?

Together with the rockets in his pockets and the schermulies in his goolies

The enemy recognition guide issued by the Intel chaps of the 7th Armoured, 'The Desert Rats', chock full of pics of t-55s, T-72s, BMPs and other goodness, was entitled 'The Rat' – very clever! Threat – The rat….

Oh never mind…

Bruce, I suspect that you are referring to the issue produced by the Int Section (We don't do intel just Intelligence!) of 7 Armd Bde for Op Grapple or Op Granby.

In the 80s 7 Int Coy produced "The Threat" magazine and smaller recognition booklets all as "The Threat" until the wall went down, then it was renamed, but I was in Hong Kong so I am not sure.

Tally Ho!