"Just how popular is early-WW2 wargaming?" Topic

(I'm not advocating any new boards on TMP)

Just how popular is early-WW2 wargaming, by which I mean the early campaigns that are pre-USSR, Japanese, and USA involvement?

I believe most wargamers first dip their toes in with a post-D Day (primarily infantry)scenario involving USA and Germany only; followed by USSR v Germany (tanks); Western Desert (tanks); and that early-war, and Far East (Brits/Commonwealth/US Marines/Japanese) come later, if at all.

Is that born out by your experience?

Thanks

The Lamb

Are you referring to Poland, France 1940, Norway, etc?

If so, my favorite period

It's a far better balanced period, IMHO, more fun to play, no super tanks, tank destroyers, AT guns etc.

Assuming the above, I like the early war period; I will happily play the 1940 French. I much prefer early Panzers and goofy French tanks. I've got FT 17s for my French -- they still used a bunch of them.

by which I mean the early campaigns that are pre-USSR, Japanese, and USA involvement?

If you are going for campaigns before USSR involvement, then you are pretty much limited to gaming German invasion of Poland from 1st to 16th of September. The Soviet invasion of Eastern Poland started on 17th of September, and this was eventually followed by Winter War with Finland a few months later, and the occupation of Baltic states next summer.

Japan on the other hand had starter even earlier with the invasion of China in 1937, followed by occupation of French Indochina in 1940.

Essentially, I am thinking pre-Operation Barbarossa, June 1941, and pre-Pearl Harbour, December 1941.

Therefore, Poland, Norway, Benelux Countries, France, Finland, North Africa, Middle East, Greece, Mediterraean, and others I've missed but before USSR, USA and Britain/Commonwealth teamed up.

Thanks

Any tanks in the French Indo-China campaigns?

Sealion (the planned German invasion of Britain) what-ifs seem very popular here in Britain.

Any tanks in the French Indo-China campaigns?

The Japanese had some for certain and I assume the French had at least Renault FT-17 or something similar as they had those in the contemporary Franco-Thai war that was also going on. The thai army during that war fielded a number of carden loyd tankettes and vickers 6 ton tanks I believe.

Most people either want to play with the cool toys, late war tanks and whatnot, or want to play during their favorite movies which are mostly post D-Day when the Germans were getting majorly new up.

I've been gaming WWII since about 1976. I started with 1940 France, and it is still my favorite period of the war to game.

It's not my thing really and I would agree with your timeline of enthusiasm in your first post. Early seems too one sided to me, the Germans running roughshod over all comers. But the early desert appeals just for the romanticism of it. Otherwise give me 'mid war' every time.

It has not Tigers, that's why everybody hates it.

I like early war and game it in 15mm and 28mm.

The "Tigers" are the Matilda 2 and the B1-bis. France 1940 and N. Africa are my favorite periods. Tactically there are lots of interesting types of AFV's to use on all sides. Especially the MG armed ones both against each other and infantry with ATR's.

I also love the period, especially Norway, Crete, East Africa and Syria. However, the original question was about how wargamers get involved/exposed. It seems to me that many GMs start with NW Europe because nearly everyone with any interest in the period has seen some movie on the topic, whether it's _Saving Private Ryan_, _Kelly's Heroes_ or _A Bridge too Far_. That makes it easier to explain to novices, and hence that's why many wawrgamers start out in that theater/time period.

Not super popular but it has its adherents. I love early war tanks.

I enjoy gaming the Western Desert Campaign (North Africa) the most of any theater. Lots of interesting actions and both sides get to be on the offensive and defensive.

Pre Alamein North Africa hopefully its commercially possible for Plastic Soldier Company to do 20mm and 15mm .A BEF in plastic wow that would be good !

The early war is kind of neat because nobody has any super-uber mega tanks.

Early seems too one sided to me, the Germans running roughshod over all comers.

While the Germans tended to be quite succesful in the high level (eventually) during 1939-1941 period, at the low level they had a fair amount of challenges.

Besides, while the Germans tend to get a plenty of focus, there were plenty of conflicts that did not involve them, such as:
- Soviet invasions of Poland and Finland
- Italian actions against southern France, Greece and British-held territories in Northern Africa
- Japanese invasion of China
- Commonwealth forces versus Vichy France in Middle East

And if you consider the whole of 1941 as part of early war (which is what lots of gamers do), then you will see also Italians, Hungarians, Romanians etc. taking part in the invasion of Soviet Union.

The early war is kind of neat because nobody has any super-uber mega tanks.

During the invasion of France, Germans had plenty of trouble at the low level if they ended up facing Char B1-bis or Matilda II – both pretty well armoured.

And in the early operation Barbarossa, Germans got some pretty nasty surprises when facing KV tanks – though most of the Soviet tank fleet consisted of significantly less armoured vehicles (not to mention that the Soviet armoured forces tended to have quite some maintenance issues).

Sadly for me there isn't a lot of interest. There just aren't that many books out for the period here in the US. Tons for the Western Europe campaign of '44, nearly zip for the '39 and '40 campaigns. So that shaped my interests really.

That's a shame because I like the 37mm/40mm/50mm tanks. In those actions it did come down to the skill of the crews and the flexibility of the command structure… which leaves the Allies in the dust. I'll play the UK in 1940, I'm an avid UK player, but not so much for the French, Dutch, and Belgians. The last two just didn't last long and the French fought a couple of hard actions (Stonne for example), but then folded. Not very interesting to me unless there's more information out there in English about the actions so there's more to choose from.

The Polish Campaign was hard fought but I've never seen anything here in the states beyond general histories and a couple of Osprey titles. I would have more interest, but there's so little source materials to fuel any interest I might have.

It's not really known for it's tank battles, Poland. Not many tanks in the Polish army of 39. There were exceptions though eg the Polish tank ace Edmund Roman Orlik

link
link

It's an interesting sign of how much we tend to focus on the late war toys, that the vehicles counters in the old Avalon Hill game "Panzerblitz" (which I bet introduced a lot of us to WW2 gaming) were almost entirely post-summer '44: covering less than a quarter of) the war's time!

You played with what you had Tuscaloosa. Panzer Leader was my very first war game experience.

There just aren't that many books out for the period here in the US.

If Karl-Heinz Frieser's descriptions of FCM 36s and Pzkw IIIs firing at each other at point blank ranges (because neither gun could penetrate the other's armor well), and Sgt. Rubarth's one-man assault on the French bunkers don't get you eager to do France 1940, nothing will: link

See also: link , link and link

Initially '44 France, but my group did a lot of '42 North Africa as well. Now any timeframe and theater is an option.

As Griefbringer notes, when dealing with low level actions (like a regiment or less on the table) the Germans suffered many a bloody nose while learning the tricks of the trade.

I was introduced to war gaming through Western Front 1944. I just figured it was popular because that's when the Americans got into the war and the Germans had a lot more cool toys than the Japanese. But, as someone said earlier, Europe always gets more movie press than the Pacific.

A couple of us decided to go back to the beginning last year and played Poland. We got a greater appreciation for how tenacious the Poles were. The Germans didn't out fight them, they just had so much more to bring to battle. I never thought I'd grow to fear a 37mm ATG on the table, but the early war games definitely test your combined arms skills.

We decided to step back to Khalin Gol before moving on to Finland. I'll be posting some AAR's this Fall.

Except for late war Germans in their pretty camo smocks, especially the Waffen SS, there is also a natural tendency to gravitate toward one's own national force. An American gamer is more likely to start an American army than a British or Russian one, and a Briton may favor a '44 British army with newer toys like Cromwells and Fireflys than an American or Russian force, or even a '40 BEF army for that matter.

But Germans (especially late war) are popular no matter what. And maybe in some cases the Africa campaign as well because of the glamor and dash of the Afrika Korps and Desert Rats.

Definitely for me the early war in North Africa, up to November-December 1942, starting with the Italian offensive. Also Greece and Crete. All of these hold a charm for me, and I am nowhere near running out of material for games in these areas.

But I also like later North Africa Western Desert, Tunisia, Sicily, and looking forward to Italy. Just haven't gotten there yet. ;-)

In answer to your questions:

Not so much.

Yes to the post D-Day concept but not exactly as described.

Just waiting for plastic Matilda 1s in 1:72 then I'm in…

Much prefer early war. France, Poland , Crete, Holland, Greece and the Desert War all provide excellent wargaming opportunities and the Germans certainly dont get things all their own way.

We play the whole war but Winter War and France 1940 both have a special place both in out hearts and in our collections.

I'ld love to do early war American armoured games, but it would be hard to scrounge up all the kit to do a good game of the Louisiana Maneuvers of 1941 and 1942, or the Tennessee Maneuvers of 1943.

It's not easy being a gamer hipster x,X

It's not easy being a gamer hipster x,X

Maybe you could try instead doing Phoney War Belgian bicyclists?

On german camo smocks.
The SS started the war with camo smocks.

Check out the date of the plane tree smock ( 1936 )
link

I'll add, for me, "early war" extends through 1941, though a lot of people prefer to keep it to just the Blitzkrieg years.

I'd find the early war period fascinating, not as over-exposed and full of possibilities. And more variety with archaic weapons and obsolete vehicles and uniforms in transition, not to mention the Cameron Highlanders still in kilts.

Its very popular, given the propensity and popularity of modern rules which focus on very low force levels they lend themselves to giving a decent game when there are just a couple of platoons of infantry and a tank or 2 a side.
Take a full German division and pit it against an early French/polish/Soviet one and the imbalances start to be exaggerated.

AFAIK no Highland units wore kilts in combat. All had changed to trews by the time the fighting started.

Early war holds challenges for both Axis and Allied players. For the Germans the allies have the uber tanks for a change in the Matilda II and Char-B, but you have the air support for a change. Gun ranges are much less, AT rifles are viable weapons and there are lots of interesting units to chose from. What's not to like.

Never grabbed my attention. I like 1944+.

I remember when Squad leader went 'early war' with Crescendo of Doom instead of publishing the US module after Cross of Iron. Seemed like a huge wrong turn.

Early war is difficult to get right. I think it can be done but is not easy. The reasons the Germans were able to dominate are intangible – not down to technology or morale/training.

"The reasons the Germans were able to dominate are intangible – not down to technology or morale/training."

The reasons are fairly tangible…superior training, doctrine, leadership, communications, combined arms tactics and so on.
Granted, these differences tend to be more difficult to reproduce the lower the level your rules try to represent, and the vast majority of rules tend to focus far too much on the minutiae of equipment and weapons and firepower, and take a lazy route to establishing these differences – usually manifesting in the form of Germans being "+1 firers" or some such rubbish.
Again, when pitting one German Platoon against say, a French platoon, its hard to do, but that says almost as much about the style of game it seems a majority of wargamers want to play as it does about the difficulty (or not) of representing the differences of the early war period. These differences are by no means exclusive to early war; representing the superiority of the allies in late 44 onwards for example presents similar problems, and rule-writers invariably resort to clumsy mechanisms to get the required results.

'intangible' in the sense of not being physically grasped which I think stands.

There is also a strong preference among wargamers for low level tactical games. One tank model – 1 tank etc. At this level it is harder to show the value of communications. The Germans had more and better radios in the early war – that was crucial.

Early war also lacks the high 'sex appeal' of the later war AFVs and the imagery. Most of the WW2 photos are from later war campaigns.

I think if someone did a good job of early war I would be interested – it just doesn't inspire me like 1944. 1945 doesn't grab me either.

It is an interesting period, something we do from time to time, but the bulk of our gaming is 1943 onwards. Nothing to do with national chauvinism or supertanks, there was just so much more war later on….

When I started out wargaming, early war was woefully neglected from a source point of view, whereas El Alamein, D- Day etc was where it was all at. Memoirs of early war mainly focussed on the air and naval conflict, with a side visit to the desert, and e.g. the French campaign was skimmed over as it only lasted a few weeks.

I was introduced via a Battle of Arras 1940 game using Blitzkrieg Commander and have never looked back …well, forward really.

I enjoy reading about WW2, all theatres, but the more 'amateur' the army appeals to me. Must give the Finnish Winter War a look at.

However, favourite tank is the Panzer IV.

I guess one reason for the mid-late war focus was that there were few vehicles available for the early war in the 'Airfix era' of WW2 wargaming.

iirc this limited one (in tank terms) to
Germans- Stug III, Pz IV, Tiger I, Panther
British – Crusader, Grant, Sherman, Churchill
USA – Lee, Sherman
USSR – T34

By the late 70s and early 80s lots more became widely available eg Matchbox, ESCI, Hasegawa and nowadays I'd be very surprised if there's a WWII AFV that you can't get at all, and plenty are available that were never used or even constructed!

Here in Australia the earlier period of the war is at least if not more popular than the late period as it was in 1941-42 that ANZAC forces played a vital role in the fighting there.