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"Catalaunian Fields AD 451" Topic


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1,445 hits since 27 Aug 2015
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Tango0127 Aug 2015 12:42 p.m. PST

Of possible interest?

link

Amicalement
Armand

rvandusen Supporting Member of TMP27 Aug 2015 7:37 p.m. PST

I'm very interested in this title. It's a battle I find intriguing and includes armies that enjoy collecting miniatures for.

I feel for the author though, it's one of those battles where the primary sources cover about two sides of a standard sheet of paper. If I recall correctly, Jordanes gives the most detailed account.

GurKhan28 Aug 2015 2:06 a.m. PST

We had a very interesting discussion of Chalons on the Society of Ancients Forum a few years ago – see link

The thread does ramble a bit in places, but includes the main ancient sources and raises various points on forces, intentions, etc.

Tango0128 Aug 2015 11:37 a.m. PST

Glad you enjoyed it my friend.

Amicalement
Armand

Ammianus31 Aug 2015 1:54 p.m. PST

Can't wait!

Gazzola25 Sep 2015 4:41 a.m. PST

Mine arrived the same time as the Republican Roman Warships title. But I've not had time to read it, so I can't comment on the contents other than it looks good, as does the warships title.

smacdowall27 Sep 2015 9:58 a.m. PST

Thanks all -- hope you enjoy it. Copies now available
link
Simon

GurKhan28 Sep 2015 3:33 a.m. PST

Simon, what's the evidence for those lovely coloured overtunics the Burgundians are wearing in the first plate, with the 3/4-length sleeves and the applique decoration? Don't think I've seen those before.

smacdowall29 Sep 2015 3:09 a.m. PST

Since we really know nothing at all about how the various barbarians dressed, nor how one group may have distinguished itself from another, they are conjectural.

I have made a number of assumptions in coming up with them:

First that wealthy Burgundian warriors on the west bank of the Rhine would have followed Roman fashion, just as most people in the world today follow Milan, Paris, London or New York.

Secondly that they would have had some sort of style of their own even if we do not know what that was.

Therefore I have depicted them in Roman style tunics with wide 2/4 length sleeves of the sort preserved in the Staetisches Museum Trier (which is admittedly of Egyptian origin).

I have assumed that they would have copied the Roman decorative clavi. The king's tunic is a direct copy of the decorative bands on the Trier tunic but I have given him a red rather than the un-dyed linen of the original. The other clavi are made up on the assumption that they would have perhaps copied the fashion but did so in their own way. The dead one has a straight lift from Roman styles, the other one standing in un-dyed tunic is a deliberate bastardisation. The other red tunic is copied from a reconstruction at the Musée des Temps Barbares in N. France which is conjectural and is an attempt to depict one step removed from Roman style but still following the fashion of the day.

The many surviving clavi and orbiculi (there is a fair selection in drawers at the British Museum) seem to show that the Romans themselves had a fair amount of variety in style and I suspect that how they were arranged was much a matter of individual choice, depending on wealth and sources of supply.

I have gone for red and white as the colours for no better reason than that was what the Romans favoured. I remember reading somewhere that green and red combination was favoured by both Goths and Franks but cannot recall where that comes from.The later Ashburnham Pentateuch shows various combinations of red and blue with some notables in green cloaks so I could perhaps have extended the colour palate.

The tunic worn over linen shirt may have been a fashion that came into being in the 5th C. Raffele D'Amato's Roman Militray Clothing (3) discusses this. The style is also reconstructed by R. Christen Die Alamannen and this was also the basis of the reconstructions at Musée des Temps Barbares. Of course there is no hard physical evidence for it so it may be entirely wrong!

GurKhan29 Sep 2015 8:34 a.m. PST

Ah, thanks very much for that. For some reason I assumed from the wording in the book that you were thinking of something more distinct from Roman fashions, but now I see where you were coming from.

As for red and green, Sidonius describes Sigismer's followers wearing green cloaks with crimson or purple borders – viridantia saga limbis marginata puniceis – which may be where you got the idea from. Isn't there some doubt as to whether Sigismer was a Frank or a Burgundian?

smacdowall30 Sep 2015 8:25 a.m. PST

Thanks for the reminder!
Sigismer has been variously been ascribed to the Burgundians. Alamanni and Visigoths although most historians seem to go for a Frankish interpretation.
I guess if you portray a comitatus in green with crimson borders you could call them anything you want!

Ammianus01 Oct 2015 3:01 p.m. PST

Great book Simon, one of the best Osprey Campaign's I've read in a while.

smacdowall02 Oct 2015 4:09 a.m. PST

Thanks very much indeed!
Simon

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