"Western Desert per Alemain" Topic

And apologies fo spelling.

Number 2 son has enjoyed his WW2 tank games recently, and asked me to getr a desert coloured mat (he has some Crusader models…), so I wondered if there is an easy access, on-line, free, simple, resource to help me plan some representative forces for Italy, DAK and 8th Army that I could look at getting.

I am thinking around 10 tanks and 100 infantry each (which in my terms normally means a couple of boxes of plastic toy soldiers – the Airfix still look good so DAK/8th are sorted, and I think Caesar and Waterloo 1815 do some suitable Italians).

Tanks – I fancy some of the Italian stuff, and some seem to be available in 1/72 plastic, which can sit alongside some Matchbox PzIIs, some PSC PzIIIs, but wanted to see what would "work" in a low scale setting.

I am not looking for 100% historical accuracy, but woudl prefer not to buy tanks that did not fight in the desert, or get proportions ridiculously wrong.

So any and all suggestions welcome please.

Thanks

Marc

Pre! I meant Pre – aaargh, curse my spelling skills

Pre, as I was trying to avoid Shermans…

For my mat, I use a 6x4 sheet of tan vinyl that has random sublte splotches of beige and brown spray paint on it. Vinyl works great because it is heavy enough that contours of anything put under it are gentle. The downside is that stuff can slide on hills.

The best part was it was pretty inexpensive to create.

Another mat option is tan felt.

Another mat option is tan felt.

Indeed! This can be bougt in bulk online from a number of suppliers for about half of what a commercial game mat costs.

Google S-Model for some interesting tanks that fought in the desert.

Also Armorfast has a few.

If you want them pre-painted, try Dragon armor. Somewhat expensive but they do look nice.

Lancer Miniatures has a resin A9 that looks quite nice.

Airfix has an inexpensive Matilda. It is actually 1/76 scale but would work nicely anyway.

Yep, already got the mat, It is suggestions for forces I am looking for. I could use the old FoW italian army box set as a starting guide, but wondered what else was out there

Built two Matildas – love the Airfix tank – pure nostalgia for me.

The Works is cuttently selling 1/72 pre painted tanks for £2.00 GBP They depict tanks in Russsian service, including Matildas and Lees. Not as detailed as a kit and needs a repaint but more robust and cheap.

If you are doing Germans, I would recommend 2-3 PziIIh, 1-2 PzIVd and maybe 1-2 PzII. Infantry would be truck borne, so a 3-4 Opel Blitz or similar. Add a 75IG and 37mm ATG for support

For Itslians, go for M13/40 or L3

What Rich B said for the Germans.

For the British it is harder due to the sheer variety of tanks they used. Airfix Crusaders are a good standby, the 2pdr variety is fairer.

Frontline has a good selection of 20mm resin Italian and other early war stuff suitable for the desert. Inexpensive and robust.

frontlinewargaming.co.uk

Thanks Rich, that's the sort of rough guide i was looking for. I have some Armourfast Crusaders. Definitely 2lbrs 😀

Hoping to keep all plastic where possible.

PzIIs are a good idea. Can i use the Matchbox Weape, or is that just toy soldier fantasy box art?

There's a Matchbox PzII kit that's available. Most of mine are from them. For British, I'd definitely do Matilda's. The problem with Crusaders and other Cruisers is that they rarely cooperated with infantry on a tactical level. The siege of Tobruk being a notable exception.

No unfortunately the Wespe wasn't delivered until mid 1943 so none in Africa.

To face the German force suggested by Rich I would have a couple of Light Mk VI, available from S Models, or M-3 Honeys another pair of Armourfast Crusaders and your Matildas. Infantry carried in carriers and trucks. Add a couple of Zvezda 2pdrs also towed by carriers. For carriers the PSC set is handy.

You should also check out Plastic Soldier Review, there are several other sets of figures compatible with Airfix for variety

Fatman

Ah ha – I knew Matchbox had cheated with the Wespe

I will go and browse S models. I have carriers from PSC (lovely models) – did not know Zvezda made 2lbrs – I thought their stuff was 1/100 so will have to look harder.

Figure wise, I like teh Caesar stuff, and Waterloo 1815 have expanded the Italians, which I hope with some head swapping to get a mixed force.

And Rich, that is interesting about the Cruisers – I am reading a book about the 5thRTR at the moment, and have just got to the desert bits, and I can see what you mean about how the Brits struggled to make stuff work together.

Marc
Because the Zvezda stuff is meant for there Art of Tactic "Board Game" the model scales vary, the vehicles are 1/100th but the infantry and guns are 1/72nd. The only problem with the 2pdrs is they are for France 1940 so the crew are a bit over dressed.

Fatman

Marc
PSReview of the 2pdr

link

I suggested them because they are cheap, usually about £3.00 GBP, and rather nice models. If you use AA they do a nice 40mm Bofors for the Brit's and a 2omm for the Germans.

Fatman

Cheers. That is a great little model and far more interesting than yet more Airfix 6lbrs. Is there a "go to" supplier for the Zvezda range, or is it hunt the net time?

And yes, I think I could make an argument for some AA cover too

S-Model has the light Italian tanks, L3 series, quick-build two to a box. Italeri makes a quick-build Italian M13-40, two models per box, as well as the Semovente SP gun on similar chassis.

Italeri I think now has the molds for the ESCI Alpini, which make good infantry if you cut the feather off their helmets.

Other Italian infantry sources: Waterloo 1815 makes a 47mm ATG and a heavy FIAT-Revelli MG, though the crews are parachute troops (paracudisti), and they also make some regular infantry which includes Bersaglieri. HaT Industrie markets the former Airfix Italian infantry, which has some excellent poses.

Caesar makes an infantry set of elite troops (Bersaglieri with plumed helmets and fezzes).

Check out Plastic Soldier Review for a complete list of Italian figures.

For British Light Mk VI tanks, sometimes you can score a good sale from Squadron for the Airfix model. It's quite simple to assemble, as the tracks and wheels are all one piece for each side.

I second the Airfix Matilda and the Armourfast Crusader.

And, in case you missed it, DEFINITELY no Wespe in North Africa. The SP gun used there early on was an old 150 mounted on a Pz II chassis with open top, and later a 150 on a captured Lorraine chassis (heavily modified).

lonesentry.com/ordnance/tag/self-propelled-gun

That's a good link. Shame about the Wespe as it is available. Not sure what is out there for the other SPs. But it will be fun to look.

The Italians look an interesting force, with enough kit available. So that is a definite. And I will sort out some of those lighter British tanks – I hadn't heard of Squadron, so that's another good lead. Thanks guys, much appreciated.

Joy of the Italians is an interesting camo scheme

Grumble87106
I recommended the S Models because it is very widely available and you get two in the pack. The Airfix/J B Models kit is nice and has the advantage that you can make the A/B/C variants.

Marc the only model of the earlier "15cm sIG33 Sfl" I know of is the lovely model in Milicasts Battlefield range

link

But as you can see its not cheap.

Fatman

The Milicast is a tad pricey but not too bad. I have reckon I only need one or two tops

S-models seem a fair price these days and, as you say, there are two kits i. The box. I need to sort out some orbats gor a sensible table sized force.

Don't forget the Italian artillery! Italeri do both the 90mm flak gun on the truck mount or ground based, and the 149/40 gun

Germans use bog standard 105 fh 18's with truck tows and the 150's can always be 'off table' ;)

Armourfast and Airfix Crusaders are compatible side by side in the same unit; Armourfast also make a Valentine if you don't want to tackle the Esci kit. Matchbox do Humber armored cars and PSC do lovely Bren carriers.

Oxford die cast make superb Bedford 15cwt trucks

Good news is the German infantry all ride around in trucks so you don't need to splurge on a whole bunch of Hanomags

Ah ha – I knew Matchbox had cheated with the Wespe grin

True, but the plain yellow scheme was often used in Sicily, Italy and Russia so not complete fiction. I doubt 21st Panzer ever had any. They had the French conversions in Normandy and I expect any of those lost would have been replaced with towed guns late '44 onwards. Does anyone know if 15 PGD had any in Sicily/Italy?

You can have the odd Hanomag I think. They got some for specialist units.

Marc if you stick with '41 the Italian kit is reasonably competitive. The German 50mm, 2 pdr and Italian 47mm having very similar AP performance, armour is roughly equivalent too, apart from the PzIII with 50mm compared to the 40mm of British and Italian tanks. Early '41 you can have the A13 too one of my favourite tanks.

Beware, however, of getting the S-Model A-13 for North Africa. That model represents an earlier Mark which never got there. It has the slab-sided turret, whereas the ones in NA had the sloped armor -- a very different-looking turret.

Anyone know of a good source for A-13 later Marks? (Mine are all scratch-built, so I haven't done the research.) One of my favorite tanks, too, along with the A-9!

Fatman, I agree about the convenience of two in the pack for the Mk VI from S-Model. However, as you say, if you want different Marks, the JB model is your answer. And, really, sometimes Squadron has sales that make each Mk VI cheaper even than half the price of an S-Model box! (That's how I got a bunch of them.)

Also, I don't find S-Model to be that widely available. Can anyone help me out here? A good source in the US?

I think I would be able to accept the slab sided turret (and for S-Models, PSC in the UK seem to be a source, or eBay).

IIRC a single company from II/115th rifle regiment (15th panzer) had Hanomags as well as some of the Pioneers.

I believe PSC is coming out with early British cruisers very soon and have already made them in 15mm

I've seen plenty of pictures of Hanomags in the desert; not sure what units they were in.

Good news about PSC and the early cruisers. Maybe they'll even make a late Mark A-13 with the spaced armor turret. :-)

And maybe when Piers does desert rules PSC will do the vehicles

There is approximately 15 SdKfz 252 in the desert early on. There actual deployment is uncertain, but they have been assigned either to a Panzer Reconnasaince Battalion or alternatively to one company of the MG battalion.

And as far as the A13 are concerned, if anyone complains about the early version being "wrong", poke them in the eye and ask " Do they look OK now?" 😉

Think outside the square and look at Wartime Miniatures for some lovely figures for the desert

link

link

Also Britannia have some very handy vehicles for the desert as well as infantry including Indians in turbans, Australians

link

link

Are they plastic?

Nah. WW2 needs to be plastic otherwise it just doesn't feeel right to me. I can stretch to some AB as they are lovely. But the bulk of my armies are fueled by nostalgia/plastic 1/72

A13's of both marks are available from Frontline Wargaming.

Unless I missed it , quite surprised nobody has mentioned the Airfix 1/76th Grant/Lee tank. Can be a little tricky to build and better models now available but still isn't bad if you are not fussy about the lack of sand shields.

If you don't want Shermans then the Grant is probably you hardest hitting tank for the Brits apart from the 6 pounder armed Crusader.

Good point – and an interesting looking tank. I remember them as a kid – are they still the best/only available plastic kit in 1/72, 1/76 I wonder – I will search.

Britannia is resin, you are depriving yourself of a good range of vehicles and figures by ignoring them, haven't used plastic figures since I first found Platoon 20 33 years ago

Each to their own. Nostalgia is a part of my enjoyment of this hobby, so plastics are a key component FOR ME. I have tried metals and resins over the years, but they need to be good and cheap to compete with plastics for my tastes.

As I said above, I will consider ABs as they are pretty tasty. But most other stuff leaves me a bit cold in my chosen scale. I see people rave about many different ranges, but once one is used to the look of plastics, then some of the metal options can seem a bit wrong to the eye. But YMMV, so nothing we need fall out over.

But for this project, I am aiming for mostly plastics.

Nostalgia can be quite a powerful driver. So if your happy with Airfix and Matchbox( you can still get them) then go for it .Not everybody drives a Rolls Royce nor wants to.

Grant would be good for pre-Alamein. Shermans didn't show up until Alamein, nor did Crusaders with 6pdr come till after Alamein.

Airfix and Hasegawa make a Grant, the first in 1/76 and the second in 1/72, but I use them together without a problem.