"If Lee wins at Waterloo, does that make it "fantasy"? " Topic

There is lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth on the "Drop the H from HMGS" thread.
"Non historical games are only 20% of the games!"
"No! It's 30%!"
Blah blah blah….

They don't count tournaments, where Samurai can face Vikings.

What about a Red Star White Star game in Germany in 1985?

What about games where the historical victor … loses?

What about Imaginations?

Why is a Pulp game of Dillinger at the motel gunfight not considered historical?
And why is a Three Musketeers sword fight considered one? Or is it?

Why do we have this anal need to classify everything, and then act upon it?

Just push toy soldiers across the table, roll dice, and drink beer with your friends.

To answer your "Topic Question": Yes

Basically ALL wargames are "fantasy". No matter how well reseached even Historical battles end up as "fantasy" with the commanding General (the player) with his god-like view of the battlefield and the physical and moral condition of his foe enabling him to make tactical/strategic moves his "real-life" counterpart would be unable to make.

The best you can hope for is:
Historical means "real world" opponents fighting each other.

Fantasy is basically everything else.

Damn it all man! Read your history Winston….

Lee could only have won at Waterloo, if he had paid attention to Johnny Appleseed and not attacked El Cid straight on…Everyone knew that El Cid was supported by Sherman's Tanks….

Get it….Shermans Tanks?…ha! I kill me!!!!

Betwixt plausible historical "what ifs" and impossible fantasy, there is a vast yawning chasm illuminated by hellfire and populated by prancing demons who will fight each other to tear your soul to pieces, and the rope bridge across is fraying and missing planks. Cross at your own peril.

- Ix

If Lee wins using historical forces, it is Historical. If Lee wins with a different selection of forces that could concieveably be available, it becomes Historical What-If. If Lee wins with the help of fairies and orcs, it is Fantasy.

It all depends, if I am on Lee's side and he wins, than it was a fair and historical fight. If I am on the other side, it is unhistorical and the game is BS.

Simple.

I think even if Lee loses at Waterloo it's still Fantasy ~,~

If Lee wins with the help of fairies and orcs, it is Fantasy.

Hey dude, don't be disrespecting the fairy power.

If Lee is present at Waterloo it's alternate science fiction.

If the game is an exercise in facilitating the use of a particular rules set, e.g. WRG, DBA, FOW, WAB, Tactica, Gnome Wars, what have you, then Lee's presence is simply a facet of the scenario. In this case the tail wags the dog.

If Lee is commanding troops of Maximilian in Mexico in 1866, this is alternative history.

If Lee is fighting Orcs in the Shenandoah valley, that's fantasy.

If Lee is trying to recover Mrs. Butterworth's knickers that were stolen by Phil Sheridan, that's whimsy.

If Lee is leading IIIrd Corps into the jungles of Honduras in search of treasure, that's pulp.

If Lee is abducted by aliens, that's straight sci-fi.

If Lee is battling sharks in the streets of a flooded Fredericksburg, that's a syfy channel movie.

Simple.

But Lee was only 8 at the time of Waterloo! His mommy and daddy didn't let him play with French people until he was 10.

What KPinder said.

If Lee had given Patton free reign with his cavalry, the war would have been over before Christmas.

Everyone knows Patton was a reincarnated warrior, and natural-born cavalry officer, right?

OOOOH! Forgot one!

If Lee boards a hot air balloon for an observation jaunt and gets blown thousands of miles away to a strange island populated by a nut job with a broken submarine, that's Victorian Science Fiction.

populated by a nut job with a broken submarine [\quote] Can one person populate an island by himself? Or does he merely inhabit it?

Punkrabbit and KPinder have it right.

The semantics of the question are the rub: everything we do is "non-historical". It's just a question of degrees.

John T

Its not that hard …

Dillinger robbing a bank, historical

Dillinger killing zombies, not so much.

Sorry but HMGS has lost it's way.

Mike B

Come on, guys – it was Balaclava that Lee won – link

Would we have allowed HG Wells into HMGS? He only played fanciful games featuring the Red Army versus the Blue Army. Harumph!

I prefer a big tent myself, and my shelves are full of 6mm Napoleonics specifically for the 1809 campaign AND Doc Savage. Now if Doc Savage had been at Waterloo…

Big tent. At Enfilade (NHMGS) we are chiefly historical miniatures, with room on the convention floor for sci-fi and fantasy. We've had huge Waterloo, Blenheim and Gettysburg game, but the best attended game was a Space 1889 game. There are simply too many genres and too much cross over between miniaturists to be exclusively anything. The purists will simply have to grow up, deal with it or game in their historicals-only ghettos. Nobody has to play a game they don't want to play.

KSmyth +1

in fact, KSmyth + several million

John T

KSmyth +1

in fact, KSmyth + several million

Amen.

It is ALL a fantasy, some of it isnt fantastic.
So yes!
Sherman's tanks! good one, Murph!

M3 Lees at Waterloo?….that's a GREAT idea…

This hobby, like every human pursuit, is full of people who like to tell others what they should be doing. There are only two "shoulds" in wargaming:

1. There should be all types of games, and
2. You should play the ones you like, and not concern yourself with what others are playing.

I am . . .

- unconcerned with what HMGS does with their organization, or what they choose to call themselves,

- unimpressed by the opinions of those who seem to be challenged by the distinction between "fantasy" and "fiction",

- unable to work up the tiniest shred of angst over the fact that my tastes in wargames don't conform to Winston's expectations (or, indeed, most of the wargaming population's),

- unconvinced that broader appeal is a valid measure of quality,

- unapologetically happy in my "purist", all-historical ghetto.

I'll take that cup of java, Terrement, with a teaspoon of brown sugar and a generous splash of Irish whiskey.

If Lee wins at Waterloo, then what is Sharpe supposed to do?

why have some people the anal need to ask this kind of…… questions

Since we've ventured down this path … and are yet to be consumed by dragons … can I ask the question what if Davout had been back in Richmond and running the CSA war effort and it had been Longstreet replacing Ney and leading the attack? Would he have gone forward only with cavalry?

And if Reille had been replaced by Jackson would he have got his Corps hung-up on the defences of Devils Den or just by-passed the Guards and pushed on to Brussels.

To answer the original question: only if he uses the nuclear option from his B-52 assets.

Just push toy soldiers across the table, roll dice, and drink beer with your friends.

Nominated for best answer! </thread>

I second Winston for the win,

If I replay a fantasy game does that make it a historical re-enactment and therefore no longer fantasy?