"British Light Infantry-Standards?" Topic

I assume that since the light infantry battalions were other regiment's light infantry companies the battalions had no regimental standard.

Did they carry a national standard? If yes, were they just a Union Jack with no regimental designation?

Thanks.

Converged lights did not have colors of any kind. The line regt's had colors, but you probably wouldn't find them carrying their colors in the field. Being gamers, we tend to ignore that and give our little men flags.

British Light Infantry Battalions carried a King's and Regimental colours just like their Line brethren.

Converged light coys as per above (no colours) usually with a rifles coy as well to form a brigade skirmish screen.

I was under the impression that the Light Infantry battalions in service in the Colonies during the AWI were converged. Is that not right?

Yes. IronDuke596's information applies to Napoleonics, not AWI.

Converged Light Infantry battalions in the AWI carried NO Colours , of any kind. Nor did grenadiers.

The so-called "Union Jack @ is NOT a "national" Colour. The King's Colour was still a regimental flag, unique to the regiment.

Now, if you really want one , go ahead and fly one. But you will be scoffed and laughed at c

Btw, none of the Guards battalions carried Colours either.

"Scoffed and laughed at"- Tough love!

I have been painting AWI for about a year now. Winston Smith and his alter ego have been a fantastic source of information.

I painted up a unit of 24 light infantry from Fife and Drum. They came out nice, but I have to admit, they look odd without a flag.

The Perry figures have two standard bearers in their command sets. That is frustrating to me because I am not going to toss the figures aside and buy figures to replace them. So I paint them up and they look dumb on the command stand without anything in their open hand. They are going to get flags unless someone has a better idea about how to use the figures that are made to be holding a flag pole.

Please help me to avoid the scoff and laughter to come.

Matthew

can you maybe find an used musket somewhere and put that in their hands? You might be able to bend the arms a bit to facilitate that.

That might work on some them. I am pretty sure I have some spare muskets somewhere.

Kenneth- just to clarify somewhat, the LI battalions had no colours not only because a) they were temporary units and not embodied but b) because their scouting and skirmishing role did not generally require either a formation marker or rallying point- although during the AWI (b) does not seem to have been essential to Line battalions either, given that some did not carry colours into battle.

As has been discussed in several threads, there is evidence that, instead, some 'flank' battalions made use of coloured hat/cap feathers as a 'force multiplier.'

The Guards battalions were ad hoc units as well and so lacked battalion colours for the same reason. Am I right , though, in thinking they might have brought company colours or have I got that back to front (i.e. they definitely _didn't_ bring them)?

Why not use Fife & Drum light infantry command figures. The light command figures don't come with flags.

If you are simply burning through excess Perry command sets, you could equip the ensigns with flags for different regiments that had the same uniform as your regiments. That way you can simply switch out the ensigns and have the same troops represent different units.

I have a bunch of Perry British infantry in roundabout and round hat. Some say these are appropriate for line infantry but I'm skeptical and like to use these only for light infantry. So using the standard bearers for line regiments don't work for everyone.

Hi Bill,

The Fife and Drum figures do not match well on the same stand with Perry figures. They are just a slight bit thinner and shorter. I have panted a lot of the Fife and Drum figures and really like the way they turned out. But they are always in a unit by themselves.

Matthew

Apparently I misunderstood what you were trying to do Matthew.

In the cases of Light Infantry and Grenadiers, the companies were stripped from their parent regiments, and converged. The Colours belonged to the parent regiments, and would not go with them.

The case of Guards was slightly different. In the Guards, companies had Colours. Again, in the AWI drafts were taken from each company, and then converged. So again, the drafts would not take with them the Colours that belonged to parent units.

In most cases in the AWI British line regiments did not carry Colours in the field. There are exceptions, as some will note.
But if line units would not carry Colours, why would units stripped from them?

I expect the Perry slouch hat and roundabout command packs contain two standard bearers because (a) you could use them for the 40th Foot which may have worn this uniform in 1777 and (b) at the time the packs were released there was a feeling in some quarters that this uniform could be suitable for line battalions in the south in the later war years.

Xavier della Gatta's painting of the battle of Germantown. show the 40th wearing cut-down uniform coats rather than waistlength jackets without lapels as worn by Light Infantry, although you have to get real close to see the detail, but there is undeniably a logic to the distinction. That's your call. How many other line regiments might have worn the uncocked hat and shortened coat or jacket remains a subject of lively discussion.

>I have a bunch of Perry British infantry in roundabout and >round hat. Some say these are appropriate for line infantry >but I'm skeptical and like to use these only for light >infantry. So using the standard bearers for line regiments >don't work for everyone.

What 42 Flanker said, though having some line infantry in roundabouts does not strain credulity, given the continuous modifications British regiments made during the war. Later in the war, you could have units showing up "per the book," such as the 80th Foot though how long that lasted is open to discussion.

Also keep in mind officers had a lot of latitude in modifying their uniforms--so an ensign in a roundabout isn't hard to imagine.

Dressing the line in waist length 'roundabouts' only strains credulity if you believe that Light Infantry jackets were adapted from their red waistcoats and care that for most of the war there were only two and, at times one, LI battalions in the North and roughly two dwindling 'battalions' of light infantry coys brigaded togther in the south from Charleston onwards- i.e. there were never very many of them.

While the evidence is not widespread, the shortened coat seen for instance in paintings of the 40th and Burgyone's infantry, hip length with cuffs, lapels and vestigial 'tails', is the most likely form of adapted uniform worn by British infantry- bearing in mind that both forms were based on existing uniform stocks, as and when they were available.

While we have record of nether garments- breeches, leggings, pantaloons or trousers- were being made up in country annually (though often of imported 'donation' cloth), I stand to be corrected but, as far as I know, red uniform coats had to come from home as with other uniform items.

As I said there is a logic to the distinction between the two. It's a question of whether this matters a jot to you for a table top representation with quite small figures. Certainly the manufacturers can oblige you handsomely if it does. Matter.

Some thoughts on the above posts:-

1) You can use "flag-less" Ensigns as spare officers – or sergeants if the figures don't have gorgets – by giving their open hands a spare musket/fusil, and some other objects (eg a water bottle). Tweaking the arms slightly can give some good "command" poses – pointing, pushing etc.

2) As Virginia Tory points out, officers often had campaign uniforms made up for themselves from old rank-and-file coats, as it made them less conspicuous, but also saved their more expensive "proper" uniform coats from damage. There is no reason why officers could have had roundabout-style coatees made up for themselves and you could use Ensigns in other units than Light Infantry. Frock coats were also popular. During the Stanwix campaign, St Leger reprimanded his officers (not sure if they were from the 8th – which had blue facings – or the 34th) for wearing blue jackets that had been made up for them

3) During the AWI, groups of recruits from various regiments were often sent to training camps in England, where they were kitted out in a basic uniform that included a sleeved white waistcoat or roundabout-style jacket, overalls etc. This kit was worn up to and including the voyage across the Atlantic, as no regimental coat was issued until the men arrived in America and were assigned to a regiment (it often happened that they went to a different unit than the one which had recruited them). It's worth noting that you can also use the British roundabout figures for Continental and State units, as sleeved waistcoats and jackets were issued to several of them (Troiani has an interesting depiction of a black solider of Gaskin's Virginia State regiment). You could also use them as Loyalist light troops, in green or red.

4) As 42flanker says, there are distinctions between the Light Infantry "roundabout" and the modified regimental coat of the 40th Foot – principally, the retention of the collar and turnbacks on the latter. Both styles are different from the cut-down (ie short-tailed) coats of Howe's army in 1776 and 1777, and Burgoyne's army in 1777. The 40th Foot style can be depicted using the wrongly-named "light infantry in feathered hat" from the Foundry range; Alan Perry sculpted these, but followed Lawson, Mollo/McGregor and others in confusing the two styles.

5) Whilst it is true that the new coats issued to a regiment each year did come across the Atlantic, soldiers were very good at "make do and mend". Several of the field mods in both Howe's and Burgoyne's armies were the result of coats being captured by privateers en route (as well as an attempt at more appropriate campaign dress and greater uniformity), but even before the AWI, it was common to make fatigue and "slop" clothing out of old regimental coats. A court-martial of a Royal Artillery corporal refers to single-breasted frock coats (not unlike the 40th garment) being made up from last year's coats, and units in tropical climates appear to have made short, single-breasted coatee/roundabout-style garments for day-to-day wear.

6) The 18th Century Discussion board has a new thread on the Foot Guards which covers their uniform modifications. However, it does not go into great detail on the colours carried – or not – in America. There is an anecdote that the Major's and a Company Colour from the 3rd (later Scots) Guards were taken to America, but nobody has ever been able to confirm even this, and there is certainly no primary source evidence of them being carried in the field.

No flags for converge lights or Grenadiers.

"During the Stanwix campaign, St Leger reprimanded his officers (not sure if they were from the 8th – which had blue facings – or the 34th) for wearing blue jackets that had been made up for them …"

Interesting, as in the previous war, officers on the Forbes Campaign of 1759 were also admonished to wear their red coats while on duty, especially at courts martials.

Gerry Embleton has a drawing of the same period of a Guards officer wearing a blue frock while on duty in Europe during the SYW there.

I believe St. Leger was with 34th, so perhaps he was expressing displeasure with officers of his own regiment using a nonstandard uniform without his permission.

Bill,

Yes, he was the CO. However, there was a detachment of picked men from the 8th Foot as part of the forces besieging Fort Stanwix; their facings were dark blue so it might equally have been them, rather than the 34th.

Officers' dress was controlled by a range of regulations, regimental standing orders and customs.
For instance, in cantonement or barracks it was normal that company officers should appear on morning parade in the undress uniform. For afternoon parades they were expected to appear in regulation dress as specified in standing orders. Certain duties in camp would also require regulation uniform but in the field there was evidently more flexibility, especially when a commander like Howe ordered officers to bring a minimum of equipage.

It took me some time to dig this up but in James Gatliff's engaging memoir, only published by a descendant in 1938, he provides some interesting detail regarding officers' orders of dress in the 52nd Regiment circa 1782:

"He said that the Sash or Gorget were never worn except on duty or Field-days, a long dress coat was not donned for morning parade, and the sword was also improper for the time. He recommended I change the coat for a jacket; my sword for a cross-belt and short hanger; and to put aside the sash and gorget.

It was an extreme kind office for had I gone to a mere drill parade in full regimentals, it might have exposed me to the censure of one and the ridicule of many. "

p.70 "Stations, gentlemen." The autobiography of James Gatliff (1766-1831)edited by H.E. Gatliff. (1938)

On such nice details did an officer's dignity rest. Given Gatliff's propensity for duelling*, it was just as well he was spared this embarassment on his first day.

(*Mentioned in review here:
link