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"Lion Rampant - starting with 1st Battle Saint Albans " Topic


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Sir Mumsy14 Aug 2015 7:17 p.m. PST

I am planning my first scenario for Wars of the Roses and I have chosen to use the 1st Battle of Saint Albans as the foundation. Does the following army list look plausible for that battle? From my research, there seems to be conflicting numbers regarding men as well as whether the Lancastrians had archers. I will be using Lion Rampant rules because my gaming buddies enjoy playing that. This is my first attempt in using an actual historical event as the basis for a scenario. The objective is to create a fun and entertaining game for the ladies -- not necessarily an accurate refight. Thank you in advance for your evaluations and recommendations.

Humphrey Stafford 1st Duke of Buckingham (OC) and King Henry VI
1 unit foot knights

Edmund Beaufort 2nd Duke of Somerset
2 units foot sergeants

Henry Percy 2nd Earl of Northumberland
2 units foot sergeants

Thomas Clifford 8th Baron de Clifford
3 units foot sergeants

Richard Plantagent 3rd Duke of York (OC)
1 unit foot knights
1 unit archers (longbow)
2 units foot sergeants

Richard Neville 16the Earl of Warwick
1 unit foot knights
1 unit archers
2 units foot sergeants

Richard Neville 5th Earl of Salisbury
1 unit foot knights
1 unit archers
3 units foot sergeants

A sea that raged no more14 Aug 2015 10:13 p.m. PST

Looks good to me. Like to know how you get on. Photos?

MajorB15 Aug 2015 3:40 a.m. PST

Assuming Foot knights are in units of 6 figures and all others are units of 12 figures then you have the ratios about right (~2000 Lancastrians vs. ~3,000 Yorkists) The figure to man ratio works out at about 1 figure represents 22 men.

ALL of the archers should be armed with the longbow, and I would suggest your Yorkist forces should have more of them – as many as 50% – so I would give each of the Yorkist leaders 2 archer units instead of 1 and reduce the foot sergeant units accordingly.

The Lancastrian army was not really a proper army – many of those killed at the battle were members of the King's household rather than professional troops. I would therefore suggest some of the foot units in the Lancastrian force be depicted as poor qaulity troops or even Bidowers (in LR terms). The Lancastrian army should have some archers, though not as many as the Yorkists for reasons stated above. I would suggest replacing two of the foot sergeant units with archers (again, armed with the longbow).

Bear in mind when setting up the terrain that the distance from the main street of St Albans to the Tonman Ditch is about bowshot, so make the distance the same as longbow range in LR.

For a detailed study of the battle (and the 2nd battle too) I recommend "The Battles of St. Albans":
link

Hope that helps.

KSmyth15 Aug 2015 8:53 a.m. PST

Wouldn't convert units to bidowers. They are six figure units that have much different characteristics than the troops identified. BUT, I wouldn't hesitate to alter skill or morale levels required for your scenario. I do it all the time and it works well.

MajorB15 Aug 2015 8:58 a.m. PST

They are six figure units that have much different characteristics than the troops identified.

Precisely. I did say "or even Bidowers". Many of the "troops" with Henry VI were in fact his personal household and thus not trained to fight. These are best represented by the "Bidower" type in LR and replace 1 foot sergeant unit with 2 Bidowers. Of course, reducing skill and morale levels would have much the same effect …

Sir Mumsy15 Aug 2015 4:06 p.m. PST

Major B, I have that specific book already, but thank you for sharing the link.

How about this?

Humphrey Stafford 1st Duke of Buckingham (OC) and King Henry VI
1 unit foot knights

Edmund Beaufort 2nd Duke of Somerset
1 unit foot sergeants
1 unit foot yeomen

Henry Percy 2nd Earl of Northumberland
1 unit foot sergeants
1 unit foot yeomen

Thomas Clifford 8th Baron de Clifford
1 unit foot sergeants
1 unit foot yeomen
1 unit bidowers

Richard Plantagent 3rd Duke of York (OC)
1 unit foot knights
2 unit archers (longbow)
1 units foot sergeants

Richard Neville 16th Earl of Warwick
1 unit foot knights
1 unit archers (longbow)
2 units foot sergeants

Richard Neville 5th Earl of Salisbury
1 unit foot knights
2 unit archers (longbow)
1 units foot sergeants

Sir Mumsy15 Aug 2015 4:11 p.m. PST

Sorry, no photographs. Only 48 figures and 1 building have been painted. I have started this project recently and it should last until the late next year.

MajorB16 Aug 2015 3:56 a.m. PST

How about this?

Still no archers in the Lancastrians? I would have given them at least one unit. And I'd make that 2 units of bidowers instead of 1 – bidowers are only 6 figure units.

Sir Mumsy16 Aug 2015 8:08 a.m. PST

Major B, perhaps I don't understand what the King's typical household staff composition would be like, but Lion Rampant bidowers are skirmishers. When playing Lion Rampant, I run by bidowers around the battlefield to harass the enemy. I really can't see the King's household unit doing that and I would think they would take more of a defensive stand. I am new to this period, so please correct me if my perceptions are wrong.

Humphrey Stafford 1st Duke of Buckingham (OC) and King Henry VI
1 unit foot knights

Edmund Beaufort 2nd Duke of Somerset
1 unit foot sergeants
1 unit foot yeomen upgrade to mixed weapons (spears and bows)

Henry Percy 2nd Earl of Northumberland
1 unit foot sergeants
1 unit foot yeomen upgrade to mixed weapons (spears and bows)

Thomas Clifford 8th Baron de Clifford
1 unit foot sergeants
2 unit foot yeomen upgrade to mixed weapons (spears and bows)

MajorB17 Aug 2015 2:36 a.m. PST

I don't understand what the King's typical household staff composition would be like

Everybody the King needed to run his household. Cooks, servants, porters, bakers etc. etc. (just look at the list of casualties from the 1st battle in the Burley et al. book). None of them trained to fight, although they could probably defend themselves if attacked (everyone carried a knife, though intended for eating not fighting…)

In LR terms the best type that fits these is the Bidowers and even then (as you quite rightly say) Bidowers are really skirmish troops rather than (effectively) untrained militia. The choice is yours. You could make them non-combatants, but then you'd have to reduce the number of units in the Lancastrian army to compensate.

However, in the specific case of the 1st battle of St Albans, I would suggest that it doesn't really matter. The Lancastrians are in the town centre and only the trained troops actually fight (at the bars) so your Bidower units representing the King's household will spend most of the game in the centre of the town doing nothing until they are possibly attacked by Warwick's men coming in over the backs.

Remember that the battle was actually all over in about half an hour …

Codsticker17 Aug 2015 9:30 a.m. PST

n LR terms the best type that fits these is the Bidowers…

What about the "Serfs" entry?

MajorB17 Aug 2015 11:18 a.m. PST

What about the "Serfs" entry?

That's what comes of trying to answer this not having my copy of LR to hand. Yes, you could use Serfs instead of Bidowers. They are quite similar. Your call.

Sir Mumsy17 Aug 2015 2:03 p.m. PST

Thank you for the clarifications and replies.

I have to give the Lancaster a chance so if between serf and bidower, I would rather chose bidower.

So the final list should be the following.

Humphrey Stafford 1st Duke of Buckingham (OC) and King Henry VI
1 unit foot knights

Edmund Beaufort 2nd Duke of Somerset
1 unit foot sergeants
2 units bidowers

Henry Percy 2nd Earl of Northumberland
1 unit foot sergeants
2 units bidowers

Thomas Clifford 8th Baron de Clifford
1 unit foot sergeants
2 unit bidowers

Richard Plantagent 3rd Duke of York (OC)
1 unit foot knights
2 unit archers (longbow)
1 units foot sergeants

Richard Neville 16th Earl of Warwick
1 unit foot knights
1 unit archers (longbow)
2 units foot sergeants

Richard Neville 5th Earl of Salisbury
1 unit foot knights
2 unit archers (longbow)
1 units foot sergeants

MajorB18 Aug 2015 6:56 a.m. PST

I still think the Lancastrians would have at leat one unit of archers. You've also reduced their total headcount by 12 from your original list, IMHO you had it about right numbers wise to start with.

Sir Mumsy18 Aug 2015 3:01 p.m. PST

Humphrey Stafford 1st Duke of Buckingham (OC) and King Henry VI
1 unit foot knights

Edmund Beaufort 2nd Duke of Somerset
1 unit foot sergeants
2 units bidowers

Henry Percy 2nd Earl of Northumberland
1 unit foot sergeants
2 units bidowers

Thomas Clifford 8th Baron de Clifford
1 unit foot sergeants
2 unit bidowers
1 unit archers (longbows)

Thank you Major B for catching that mistake. I meant to give Clifford a unit of archers before and forgot to type it in. How does the above list look now? Or do you think the archers should go to either Somerset or Northumberland instead?

Thank you very much for all your suggestions. I am new to this period and have purchased books for research and even the books from the Lance and Longbow Society for heraldry and livery information.

MajorB19 Aug 2015 10:24 a.m. PST

Looks good to me. Clifford is the best leader to have the archers I think, as there was probably more room at Sopwell Lane than at Shropshire Lane. I'll be interested to hear how your game works out!

Sir Mumsy29 Aug 2015 10:17 a.m. PST

Here is my preliminary table for first battle of St. Albans. Lots of buildings and miniatures to paint still. This will probably take me close to 1 year to finish.

[URL=http://s725.photobucket.com/user/Sir-Mumsy/media/1%20page%20layout_zps2xgeeilz.jpg.html]

[/URL]

Sir Mumsy19 Sep 2015 7:42 p.m. PST

Thank you everyone for your replies. I am still working on this project and will be for at least a year. Since my last post, I have lots of banners, painted 2 buildings and assembled/painted/based lots of waddle fences.

Once my project is completed, I will post the final table picture in the Medieval Gallery section. Thank you again for your help.

This thread is closed.

DukeWacoan Fezian28 Sep 2015 8:09 a.m. PST

The Lance and Longbow Society has a Poleaxed Source Book with very good OOBs that can be converted to other rulesets.

French Wargame Holidays05 Oct 2015 4:31 a.m. PST

My version but with WAB

Tom D124 Mar 2016 12:44 p.m. PST

Its now 7 months later.How is your project getting on? It's great to have a specific battle or campaign to work toward, but I know how frustrating progress can be.

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