"Help with 'Parked tanks'" Topic

Bit of a problem chaps. Boys in Blue have lost a Hun tank unit. We need you to drop by and make sure they don't move when the landing craft hit the beaches

Scenario I'm writing has British raiding a dispersed panzer unit – The British are SAS/whatever units held back for just this purpose; hole plugging/emergency reaction/exploitation etc. The tanks are really just the objective, rather than combatants.

The idea is that 5 June 44 the Germans have dispersed these tanks to avoid the RAF, and this particular unit is hidden in a wood. The actual German forces are the static battalion's platoons assigned to guard it from the Resistance (which will be the German orders)

1) How quickly can a tank be started?

2) Where would the crew sleep. Ideally I want them away from the tanks to stop the Germans getting the armour up and away to quickly. Given the weather on the 5th was pretty crappy, is it feasible they would take over a nearby farm house to stay dry, but away from the tanks?

Cheers

AFVs, can be started fairly quickly. AFV crews in the field sleep very close to their vehicles … Sometimes inside possibly. They may park very near to the farm house you mentioned. But at least a couple of tankers will be guarding their AFVs. You may have to take out the tankers on guard duty … silently.

Greetings

1. From you tube a Tiger hand cranked takes a bit over a minute – but they had electrical starters as well which would be much quicker. Might depend if they were fully fuelled and armed though?

2. Usually crews would sleep on or under tanks in leaguer. However if this was when the tanks were not on alert and out of battle area ie on 5 June the crews might not be with them.

Edward

If there were any infantry nearby they would also be tasked with guarding the tanks at night. If these are out in the field it would be very rare for the crew to be more than a few feet away – at least part of the crew anyway.

Damn – scenario isn't going to work; crews will be too close.

Aircraft will be a RAF/USAAF target – they can't disperse.

Anyone got any ideas? Something the Recce could have lost when it moved?

crews can be in command hut receiving briefing. . .

You could make fuel the issue. The tanks could be either out of fuel or very low. Perhaps parked and awaiting fuel to be delivered the next day.
Ammo could be low too. Maybe give each tank only so many turns of movement, and so many rounds of fire. ( maybe roll a 1d6 for each item for each tank?)

The tanks have been evacuated from front-line service to a rear echelon for Division-level maintenance, possibly new transmissions or power packs, not easily accomplished in the field at the company or battalion.

The panzer crews are with their unit at the front. The tanks are being repaired in an old French factory / Citron auto dealership / Nunnery / orphanage by Division maintenance personnel who can operate the tanks, but are not front-line combatants.

Several tanks have been repaired and are combat-ready, and are to be picked-up by their panzer crews tomorrow. Other tanks are in various stages of repair -- some can move but not fire; some can fire but not move.

A Division panzergrenadier company has responsibility for providing security for the depot repair area while the maintenance personnel repair the tanks.

The British SAS parachute in to take out the repair facility and destroy the tanks before they can be put back into action.

Don't forget tanks in laager will have a few operators in tanks on radio 'stag', so not too slow to call for assistance.

Another possibility would be a "command" issue.

I'm reading "Combat History of 21. Panzer Division" – Kortenhaus. Much higher level command was out of place the evening before and early on D-Day. Many lower formations did start up, form up and prepare to move to battle. However, they were under orders not to move without proper authorization. Several sat for many hours waiting for orders that confused HQs couldn't/wouldn't send.

You could approach it from a "command" issue that delays their reaction/activation. ie. they cannot move or fight unless x,y,z happens.

The book does state that driving and firing was limited during pre-invasion maneuvers due to resupply concerns. Units were issued a combat load and resupply was considered to be an iffy thing.

I do recall reading elsewhere that the glidermen and paras at Pegasus & horsa bridges heard the local vehicles start up and churn around shortly after capturing the bridges and forming up a quick bridgehead. It was the reaction and confused movement of the German forces that played in the Brits favor early on. Note that when the Germans did make contact and the Brits blew up the lead vehicle it did burn and brew for a while since it was fully combat loaded. Many paras said they used it as a homing beacon to locate the assembly location.

I suspect they'd fight in self-defense, regardless of orders.

Could be against a Tiger or two broken down on their way to the front?

Some of the Tiger units that marched to Normandy after D-Day lost a significant number of their force to breakdowns along the way.

Can't move, but can still fight in place.

Perhaps some recovery halftracks towed a couple off the road, and onto a field in the middle of nowhere, or near a strategic bridge, or crossroads.

Maybe the repairs on one are almost finished, but both can rotate their turrets without power, and fire their weapons.

Heavy rain/mud could also bog the Tigers down, and they have to pass skill checks to get free.

Add in supporting infantry, or not, as needed for your scenario.

Another possibility would be to have the SAS attack a known or suspected HQ rather than an armor formation. The allies did monitor and track communications. They would then send in air or arty to rough them up.

The actual German forces are the static battalion's platoons assigned to guard it from the Resistance

Might depend if they were fully fuelled and armed though?

If they were on anti-partisan duty or anything like it, they would be fueled and armed.

crews can be in command hut receiving briefing. . .

Only the Tank Commander would be at the briefing. The rest of the crew would be doing things like prep for combat, routine maintenance, maybe some eating, sleeping, etc. … Regardless you'd have some one on guard duty per each AFV.

Don't forget tanks in laager will have a few operators in tanks on radio 'stag', so not too slow to call for assistance.

Yep, someone has to be on Radio watch.

The British are SAS

Now that I think about it … you may not used such troopers like the SAS to kill 3 tanks …Now maybe a partisan ambush or raid in the middle of the night … Still regardless, still pretty dicey based on most of the input given here.

From most of the books I have read about "D-Day" is that most of the tanks faced by the British 1st Airborne and the US 82nd & 101st Airborne troopers were French tanks used by the Germans. In fact it was WW1 French FT-17 that was knocked out by a British PIAT at the Pegasus Bridge. So, I think the FFI ambush or raid as suggested is a better bet. You want to through in a SOE/OSS Jedburgh Team for some added flavor.

That's the first time I've heard that tank declared an FT17. I thought current wisdom made it a Marder of some sort?

There's a scenario similar in SkirmishCampaign's Book "Monty's Epsom" British patrol finds 4 PzIVs in an orchard at night. You might find it helpful.

Yes, I was also going to suggest the night ambush scenario in the Epsom campaign book.

The only French tanks used on d-Day were with the independent tank battalion attached to 91st Airlanding div. 21st Panzers tanks were all Panzer IVs, although also had large numbers of so guns on French chassis.

It's an IABSM game, so some of the ideas here are too low level. It is fictional, and is to pitch a small number of top quality troops againts a 2nd line defensive position. The idea was the attackers needed to get into contact with the tanks. They don't need to destroy them, just disable for a few hours, broken tracks etc, and mark the position for the RAF.

If the tanks are manned then they will be slaughtered

Make the tanks a repair facility – sot he tanks are in pieces and can't be fought, they are just an objective.
However, to make the attacker get a move on you could dice each move to see if any tanks have been quickly put back into action.

Sas would be in those cool armoured jeeps at this time afaik.
Also, tanks would almost certainly have infantry allocated to guard them.
Special forces assaulted artillery positions rather than tanks.

Maquis hit and run blowing stuff like bridges, mining roads would be too low level as well.

Panzers on 5th June…hmmm
The short answer is there actually weren't very many near the coast and those that were there the allies didn't have precise locations (like a specific wood) for. Tanks tend to move about, so by the time the allies might have got an operation together to attack them, they might have moved 5 miles up the road (which is why they weren't attacked in Laager).
Local movement orders tended to be given by landline so weren't subject to radio intercepts much.
Also those units that were around on June 5th were often in Alarm units so were supposedly in readiness. The Germans were in a high state of readiness on June 5th. They new it was coming! but, they didn't know where
22nd pzr regt (21st pzr) was in the Falaise area, 200 assault gun btn was between Falaise and Conde, 200th Pzrjgr btn was NE of Caen battlegrouped with 192nd Inf regt.
The 12th ss panzers were actually moving on June 5th,and was in the Dreux area so was probably moving during the night.
Nearest Tigers were in 101 SS at Beauvais, north of Paris.
There were a few Stug companies knocking around (902 Bde, 352nd pzrjgr) closer to the beaches, but again these were mostly in Alarm companies.
There is a reason why lightly armed infantry didn't tend to attack tanks (even if the tanks were caught on the hop). It rarely ended well for the infantry.

, I think the FFI ambush or raid as suggested is a better bet. You want to through in a SOE/OSS Jedburgh Team for some added flavor.

Yes the added SOE/OSS team of 2-3 operatives would be a nice touch.

What about the target being a bridging train? The allies will be clobbering from the air every bridge going so that armour can't move up to the beaches to counter-attack. In support of that, special forces go in to destroy the replacement bridges.

Or what about that huge railway gun they used to park in railway tunnels? Your guys could go in and blow up both ends of the tunnel.

Or what about a raid on a V2 launcher?

I'm changing the objective to (limbered) guns or some such – the Bridging units is a nice idea – just need lots of trucks. It means that the British will have to think about putting in blocking forces to stop them getting away. This way I don't have to worry about the MacGuffin fighting back!

Sounds reasonable …

Pointe du Hoc?

The tank is having maintenance performed on it and one of the treads is off so it can't move but the engine works fine but the engine covers are off and open exposing the engine.

The main gun is out of bore sight so will have negative modifier to hit. The MG's are partially disassembled for cleaning and need to be reassembled before firing.

The crew of the tank is passed out all around the tank from an all night bender except for one teetotaler.

When they wake up they'll be extremely hung over and will perform as green/untrained crew. Give them some big negative modifiers to "activate". If any one of the hung over crewman takes the gunners seat there is a small chance he'll puke all over the gun sight making it inoperable for the rest of the game. Hung over crewman attempting to load the gun may drop a round or jam it in the breech. Anyone attempting to throw a grenade may drop it. They can use their pistols and SMG for self defense and keep the attackers out of grenade range. When a hung over crewman is hit by gunfire he gets a good cover save because he's not feeling any pain and can ignore most wounds.

Whenever the main gun fires all hung over crewman lose a turn of activation from the noise causing an excruciating and debilitating headache. Some of you may be able to identify with that.

You need to make a decision to have the one sober crewman load, fire or assemble the machine guns.

The attackers do not have any AT weapons so need to make some molotov cocktails (there are numerous empty bottles of wine laying all over the place from the party the previous night)and throw grenades. If they look hard enough they may find a discarded an unfired Panzerfaust but it may misfire. A grenade into the engine compartment will start a fire.

Wolfhag