"Enemies for Mongols..." Topic

Yes, there were loads of them. But what about for skirmish type rule sets? I'm aware that Lion Rampant and Saga are not intended for maximum historical accuracy but I would like to satisfy some of my desire for historical veracity by setting a Mongol skirmish force against a similar sized force they would genuinely have encountered in this style of warfare. My impression is that the Mongols usually dispatched their enemies in one decisive battle or siege and that was that. No fighting back once conquered. Other than Mongol versus Mongol scenarios, can anyone think of enemies who bothered the Khans?

Nonno.. Local uprisings, vs tax collectors, civil wars, revenge,
Lots in Russia.
And What would later be called recon battles between intel gathering parties.
You can have escapes? One side trying to flee capture, a leader etc.

Raids on holdings.

Jurchen and Chinese.

For Mongol skirmish I would go totally exotic: Burma!
I dont think Ive seen anyone do it.

You got Mongols and their Persian allies fighting in jungle ruins. Get some Angkor Wat type aquarium ruins and lots of trees. Plus elephants!

Khwarezmia. In the 13th Century the Mongols invaded the Middle East.

The Vietnamese, big time!

Most of the time, skirmishing by the Mongols was a means to an end. Tactically, they would try to draw out troops from the opposition lines and destroy them, then start again. Or at a strategic level vis a vis against the Russians to keep them interested during the 9 day retreat before the Battle of the Khalka River. Skirmish tactics were used to lure Archbishop Ugolin Cśak of Colocsa and his force into a marsh where they were effectively destroyed during the Hungarian Campaign. There are also two famous examples of skirmishes that didn't quite go to the Mongol plan when a) a patrol was captured -probably Cumani 'conscripts'- and paraded as a propaganda exercise by Duke Francis of Austria as a reason not the trust the newly arrived Cumani in Hungary and b) when another patrol which was led by an Englishman was captured near Wiener Neustadt in Austria. As far as other opposition armies were concerned, I should imagine there were any number of skirmishes against all the enemies you can think of. Just remember that against the Polish or Hungarians, neither had any light cavalry at the time of the Mongol invasion.

Really? I thought that "light cavalry" were especially typical of Hungarian/Magyar armies. Polish armies not so much, but even here I think that they had "light cavalry" just not horsed archers.

My favorite skirmish game with Mongols would involve Crusaders and Mameluks, either/or/both. At the time, the Crusaders were trying, along with the Vatican, to talk the Mongols into converting to Christianity. The Khans all had many Christian wives and the presence of clergy was very noticeable, at least until the Mongols finally converted to Islam. Then the religious tolerance of earlier times took a palpable hit. So until that happened (early 14th century), in the Levant you could have all kinds of skirmishes occur in just about any setting imaginable, between Mongols, Muslims and Christians in all their varieties….

Taking the account of Marco Polo as a model, we can assume also that the entire realm of the Khans was a loosely controlled territory where actual elimination of random or radical elements was concerned. So bandits of all kinds were continuously possible. There was no way that any absolute control over the wilderness fastnesses could be imposed. Mongol travel would have to be heavily armed at all times. Pick your "brand" of banditti and go for it….

The new Gripping Beast plastic arabs would be my suggestion.

From Japan to Poland, just about anyone who was around.

For ImagiNations you could have Mongols versus Prestor Jon's lost kingdom!

#Great War Ace.
The Hungarians had LC when they fought off nomadic incursions about a century before. The geography of the country at the time meant that the main route in was around the southern end of the Carpathian Mountains.So the Hungarians encouraged people to live in the area -quite a number from the German States accepted- by various enticements provided they built defensive and defensible structures as a breakwater. By 1241 the Hungarian 'need' for LC had gone.
The Polish had the western group of Russian Principalities as a sort of buffer zone between them and the steppe nomads so they probably knew of the concept but had no relevant application. In my years of studying the Mongol campaigns-especially the one in Europe- I have yet to come across even a hint of LC being used by the Polish.

#Skippy0001
The truth was that the Europeans thought that the Mongols were Prestor Jon's troops simply because they were attacking the Muslim nations from the east. The thinking was that the Mongols had to be a Christian nation.

Thank for your responses, and as usual, some interesting historical info along the way. One of the reasons for going this way was my purchase of an army deal from the often overlooked Warrior Miniatures – 50 25mm (actually smallish 28mm) Mongol cavalry for £40.00 GBP, a great bargain, even though the detail does not approach Fireforge. I'm doing some conversions/green stuff sculpting – mostly headgear – to create some variety in the 6 positions available. There are enough figures for 2 small armies. Some could be used or easily converted to Turkoman types – so I'll probably go for some Islamic enemies. Maybe some extra purchases to add some extra types needed, but essentially 2 Saga sized cavalry forces for £40.00 GBP

Russians, Turkomans, Arabs, Mamluks (Ain Jalut), Georgians, Afghans, Indians (lots), Chinese, to name but the usual enemies.
Of course we also have their invasion to Europe, if only for one campaign. Here you can field Polish, Hungarian, Bohemian and German nobles and their retinues. Imho the Georgians might be interesting, with their Byzantian and western tradition in the Caucasus.

And there was the two invasions of Japan which had several fighting before two tsunami were blowing the Mongolian fleets away.

@Chinggis: I've never heard of the assertion that Hungarians dispensed with or "lost" their light cavalry, aka horsed archer, tactics. My "study" of this part of Europe is casual compared to say the Norman Conquest of England. So for the time being I will assume, from what you have said, that Hungarian armies of the "high middle ages" lacked any real presence of horsearcher cavalry. When did they get horsearchers back?…

#Hobhood4
I agree, Warrior are one the lesser known manufacturers although some of the figures are rather nice.

#Great War Ace.
To be honest, I have no idea when the Hungarians used LC again, my interest in the whole of the Medieval period only includes the conquests of the Mongols and extends as far as the Battle of Mohi and the immediate after effects.
Unfortunately I have been trying to locate the source for the lack of LC but so far have been unsuccessful. However, H H Howarth in his epic 7 volumes on 'History of the Mongols from the 9th to the 19th Centuries' says that the area was predominately populated by Saxins (German Saxons) and several towns in the area had German names.

In the 14th century Hungary had native Magyar horse-archers, Szekelers on the eastern frontier and Cuman descended horse-archers, Jazyges and Ruthenians.

These would be more from rural areas rather than towns.

See also Hungarian Light Cavalrymen, 14th Century in Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 2 by Ian Heath

Druzhina
14th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers