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"WWI in 1860s?" Topic


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basileus6605 Aug 2015 11:55 p.m. PST

Imagine that the ACW would have acted like the spark that would have started the WWI fifty years before the actual war? How would have been the alliances? France, CSA and GReat Britain against US, Prussia, Russia and Austria perhaps? Sounds plausible?

Texas Jack06 Aug 2015 1:46 a.m. PST

Oooooh, that sounds like a fun project! I donīt know how Austria would fit in the mix though. Prussia might take the opportunity to start the Franco-Prussian war a bit early though. Oh goodness, I donīt want to buy more figures! huh?

Green Tiger06 Aug 2015 2:25 a.m. PST

Sorry – I don't think it does. Austria and Russia certainly wouldn't get involved in anything that boosted Prussian power or prestige. The Austrians might have backed the Confederacy but they didn't do anything unless there was something in it for them. Prussia was busy gaining dominance over Germany so I can't see Bismark having a crack at France to aid the US (again what would he gain?).
Britain certainly wouldn't have backed France against Prussia in 1860 any more than they did in 1870.

Qurchi Bashi06 Aug 2015 4:44 a.m. PST

The Austrians might have backed the Confederacy but they didn't do anything unless there was something in it for them.

They had Maximilian in Mexico so there was something in it for them. That pushed them into alliance with France, and both were worried about the expansion of Prussia.

Once things start kicking off, Bismark might take the chance to strike one or the other while they are busy with the Americas. Then after that, anything could happen. The real world path to WWI was petty tangled.

bogdanwaz06 Aug 2015 5:14 a.m. PST

One of the reasons for the celebrated visit of Russian warships to Union ports in 1863 was to get the Russian fleet out of ice-bound ports in case of a war with Britain and France. There was tension between the countries over the brutal Russian suppression of an uprising in Poland Although the likelihood of actual warfare was very slim, it might be the spark for your alternate history idea.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP06 Aug 2015 5:35 a.m. PST

One of my buddies had a series of alternate history games on this very thing – the Trent affair goes way wrong, Britain and France support the Confederacy, the Russians and Prussians support the Union

Maybe poor history but great gaming

Col Durnford06 Aug 2015 6:09 a.m. PST

I believe there was a Strategy & Tactics issue that had a game based on this. I have a copy somewhere.

Personal logo Jeff Ewing Supporting Member of TMP06 Aug 2015 6:21 a.m. PST

the celebrated visit of Russian warships to Union ports in 1863
When my father, a history professor, visited schools in the then-Soviet Union, he was told that Russia supported the Union by sending these ships to San Francisco. He was too polite to laugh and correct them.

Buff Orpington06 Aug 2015 6:29 a.m. PST

I can see Russia supporting the Union, they have never been fond of secessionists unless they want to be Russians.

boy wundyr x06 Aug 2015 6:58 a.m. PST

@VCarter – it might have been Command magazine, they had an issue on it, though I don't recall it getting into anything beyond France and Britain. I have the magazine, but it wasn't the game version.

mashrewba06 Aug 2015 7:14 a.m. PST

I think a better spark would be what the Germans were already doing at the time and have it all kick off in Europe.

Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian06 Aug 2015 7:27 a.m. PST

IIRC in the '70's Gygax and friends ran a WW-1, 1864 campaign. Mostly Play by Post, not sure if it generated tabletop battles

Winston Smith06 Aug 2015 7:30 a.m. PST

There were always excuses for War in Europe.
Want one in 1861 or 1862? Do the math. Plenty of reasons.
Coinciding with the ACW would be a … coincidence.
All campaigns could merrily toodle along simultaneously with little bearing on the other, much like Midway in the Pacific and North Africa and Russia.

France and Prussia could maneuver in the Rhineland while Grant drove down the Mississippi. They could each read about it in the newspapers on page 3.
And I see no pressing need for France and Britain to be allies either. That's just unnatural! grin

Texas Jack06 Aug 2015 8:28 a.m. PST

Winston, donīt forget about the Crimea grin

rmaker06 Aug 2015 9:02 a.m. PST

They had Maximilian in Mexico so there was something in it for them.

No, the Emperor's brother was in Mexico very much against Franz Josef's advice. The few "Austrian" troops involved were strictly volunteers.

Inkpaduta06 Aug 2015 10:11 a.m. PST

Russia was the only country that did more openly favor the Union. Not sure that Prussia or Austria were that pro-anybody.

Mallen06 Aug 2015 12:33 p.m. PST

I wrote up a campaign for that a few years back. It has a lot of detail. If anyone wants it, send me a PM. It will save you a lot of leg work. I did one for 1885, too.

Personal logo McLaddie Supporting Member of TMP06 Aug 2015 12:35 p.m. PST

Just FYI, but some background that might have Austria siding against the US.

The Almost War between the U.S. and Austria in 1853, which could have involved them both in the Crimean Conflict.

The US almost went to war with Austria in 1853. Congress drafted a war declaration in September of that year.

The catalyst for this was the commander of the US sloop, "St. Louis," Duncan Nathaniel Ingraham. The sloop was lying at anchor in Smyrna Harbor in July of 1853. Commander Ingraham learned that the Austrian Consul-general there had arranged the kidnapping of Martin Koszta, an ex-patriot Hungarian officer. He had come to Smyrna from New York on business intending to return soon, having already declared his intentions of becoming a U.S. citizen. On June 21st he had been seized on the streets of the city by a party of armed Greeks and was being held aboard the Austrian frigate "Hussar" in the harbor.

Thousands of Hungarians had fled to Turkey in 1849, having lost their Hungarian Revolution. They had several colonies along the coast of Turkey. Austria was sure that they were all planning further rebellion against the Empire. This became a constant tension between Turkey and the two allies, Russia and Austria.

In 1851 the two countries demanded that the Turkish government turn over all high-ranking Hungarians living there, about a thousand Hungarian War veterans. The Turkish Sultan refused. It looked like war. However, because of the huge army the Russians used [200,000+] to crush the Hungarians, many Europeans viewed them as "bullies." It was a reputation that Russia would live with until the Russo-Japanese War.

The Austrian and Russian blustering led France and Britain to sail a combined fleet into the Bosporus, ready to defend Turkey against the bullies. The intervention calmed things temporarily. In 1852, Tsar Nicholas pressed the claim that Russia was the protectorate of all Christians in the Balkans and Jerusalem. This edict specifically included the Hungarians living in Turkey. The Russians then occupied Moldavia and Wallachia, both of which had been staging areas for the Russian invasion of Hungary in 1849. Turkey had protested at the time of the war, but done nothing militarily. Now, tensions were rising as the Turkish deadline for a Russian withdrawal approached: October 23rd, 1853.

Of course, it was assumed that Austria would be involved as a Russian ally in any war that broke out. The Austrians had marched more than 100,000 troops to their eastern borders in response to Russia's moves.

In Syrmna, Ingraham learned of the kidnapping from a message Koszta was able to smuggle out of the "Hussar." The captain immediately sent a letter to John P. Brown, the U.S. charge d'affaires in Constantinople, who gave the opinion that the surrender of Koszta should be insisted on immediately, before the Austrians sailed off with their prisoner. Rumors were that the Austrians were only waiting to pick up other Hungarians before leaving.

On July 2nd at 8 a.m., Commander Ingraham demanded that the Austrian commander of the "Hussar" release Koszta by 4 p.m., declaring that he would otherwise take him by force. This was quite a threat, considering that the "Hussar" both outgunned the "St. Louis" and had a larger crew. Regardless, the decks of the sloop were cleared for action, and all was made ready to attack the Austrian Frigate. The "St. Louis" moved to block the mouth of the Harbor and waited.

At 11 a.m., the Austrian consul-general proposed to deliver Koszta to the French consul, to be held subject to the disposition of the United States and the Austrian Consuls. Commander Ingraham accepted this when sufficient assurance was given for the personal safety of the Hungarian.

The affair gave rise to an elaborate discussion in Washington between Secretary William L. Marcy and M. Hulsemann, the Austrian charge d'affaires to the U.S. During this time, a war motion was drafted in Congress, to stress the seriousness of the U.S. desire to protect both the Hungarians and Turks from either Austrian or Russian aggression. Koszta was soon released and returned to the U.S. It is believed that this affair was partly responsible for the Austrian government deciding not to join the Russians in their war with Turkey.

For of this decision, the Austrians would be labeled the "ungrateful ally" after the massive help Russia had provided in 1849. Their decision enhanced their isolation diplomatically in both 1859 and 1866.

In 1854, the British actually approached the U.S. about a joint war effort when they decided to support Turkey in the Crimea.

On August 4, 1854, Congress, by joint resolution, requested that the president present Ingraham with a medal. He was promoted to captain on September 14, 1855. Captain Ingraham commanded the flagship "Richmond" in the Mediterranean when the Civil War began. He resigned his commission and joined the Confederate Navy. He rose to the rank of commodore, in the position of chief of ordnance, construction and repair.

A Crimean War with Austrians and U.S. involvement makes for an interesting scenario, both on land and sea. The war could have moved into the Balkans, or at least the western cost of the Black Sea. It has also been suggested that the Austrians might have even joined the Allies against Russia. A nervous Austria moved several corps to her eastern borders before the war in reaction to Russia' s move into the adjoining provinces of Moldavia and Wallachia.

Throughout the Crimean War, Russia kept substantial forces in the region because of the continued Austrian military presence there.

All of which makes for some very interesting "what ifs" to wargame from 1854-1864.

Col Durnford06 Aug 2015 1:34 p.m. PST

Thanks boy wundyr x.

It could well have been Command.

Rudysnelson06 Aug 2015 3:47 p.m. PST

Several books were written about a Worl;d War being fought in 1900. I read Upton's book in 1970. It was even in the Military Science section of the library. There was also a book written about the war happening in 1890.
I have seen books on world army organization and strength in the 1850s but no reference to a world wide war.

Weasel06 Aug 2015 5:01 p.m. PST

The actual topic may be a bit far-fetched, but we've played a few "WW1 but replace all the armies with their 19th century counterparts" games and they were quite a bit of fun.

EJNashIII06 Aug 2015 7:38 p.m. PST

Russian support for the Union was real. 1)They hated England and France and wanted revenge for the Crimea. 2) The Emperor had recently freed the serfs and saw himself as the European version of Lincoln. 3) The Russian navy got a serious boost thru trade deals including being provided the union monitor design. 4) Russia saw the Confederates as allies of England, hence their enemy.

Grelber08 Aug 2015 4:24 p.m. PST

When you talk about Britain and France supporting the Confederacy, keep in mind that you are really talking about the upper classes in both countries. The British working class in particular were anti-slavery and pro-Union. Historically, this is one reason the Brits didn't get involved. If something went wrong, you could find yourself playing VBCW 70 years early. (Which might not be a bad thing . . .)

Grelber

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