"Why bother with camouflage in sci-fi?" Topic

And if/when such tech comes about, we'll evolve our tactics, techniques, fieldcraft, etc., as I mentioned before. Tech forces your tactics to change and evolve.

Yes, and it also can create changes in military culture. If taking cover isn't vital to survival any more, does camouflage remain as important? Perhaps not. It's all a thought game, but then this is sci-fi we're talking about.

-Will

Again, a modern (and sensible) stance; but plenty of warriors in history went into battle waving what were essentially giant 'come and get me' signs at the grim reaper. If your military culture places a lot of emphasis on individual glory, you want to be recognizable on the field, as one example. Folks 200 years ago had radically different values then you and me, and I suspect folks 200 years from now will have radically different values then you or me. I would not assume that future conflicts will be just like modern conflicts, just with bigger fancier guns. Or, one CAN assume that (and it might be right), but other models are possible.

Yes, I think we agree on all this. And any modern Soldier, Marine, Sailor, Airman who goes looking for glory is a fool. We all can agree. Unless you are a jihadi seeking Allah's Paradise, not too many thinks like this and wants to die.

What they did sometimes was charge with the bayonet.

This was a weapon of terror more than anything else.

Surprised no one mentioned this. Deash's/ISIS/ISIL, Black Flag is their symbol of terror. You see that coming, as a civilian you are terrorized ! You know what may have a very good chance of happening. And it ain't good. Of course many Iraqi units were terrorized too. They dropped their weapons and ran away. Those captured were executed. Which in my mind might be a good reason to fight and not run. But that's me … What do I know ? However, if Daesh faced a real military force, most likely Western with a less tight ROE. Their Black Flag would only help to make them targets …

Yes, and it also can create changes in military culture. If taking cover isn't vital to survival any more, does camouflage remain as important? Perhaps not. It's all a thought game, but then this is sci-fi we're talking about.

Yes … all very true ! … Holy Cow !!!! 2 pages of talking about what and why you should paint your Sci-fi Armies !!!! We must have too much time on our hands ! For a while there I thought I was teaching a class at Combined Arms School again ! BOTTOM LINE … Do what works for You … Not Me ! As the one gent here's screen name is, something like … "Paint'm Pink" ! I know I don't really give a Rat's Bum ! Enjoy !

Very many thanks guys.

To get back to Alan's original post question here is my take and what I have done with both my 15 mm and 28 mm Science fiction models. My tanks and other military vehicles mostly have some kind of cammo scheme. Simply because I am good at painting cammo and I think it looks cool.

For the infantry figures, especially 15 mm, I tend to keep to one uniform color for a particular force faction as doing cammo in 15 mm can be a bit tedious. Which is not to say I have not painted 15 mm cammo schemes on some of my figures, but I tend to keep it to the base color of the uniform/armor then use two other colors that somewhat contrast or complement one another. Why? Because you want to be able to see the figures on the table. No I do not use garish colors but as an example my GZG New Israelis have a khaki base color with spots of German Cammo Brown and a light green. It looks good and is easy to duplicate from figure to figure. My other human forces tend to be a base uniform color with some other military color for kit, webbing, and harness. I tend to adapt something from a WW II uniform scheme such as American or German. Again, I am looking for colors that are military in nature but make it easy to identify the figures once they are the game table. The real fun is painting the tanks. However my NeoSoviet forces tend to be a uniform WW II Russian Green for all the armor because it just seems appropriate to me.

In the end I would not spend too much time worring about the issue. What is important is getting the figures painted and on the game table. Spending time to paint cammo can be rewarding but if you are uncomfortable doing so keep it simple and clean. It will look great either way and having everything painted well and on display is its own satisfaction. If anyone wants to give you grief as to why or why such and such forces are not in cammo can take a long walk off a short pier into shark invested waters.

"Well in Pictor's universe that might just work ! LOL ! wink Not so much anywhere else though … I'd think …"

" Yes, and it also can create changes in military culture. If taking cover isn't vital to survival any more, does camouflage remain as important? Perhaps not. It's all a thought game, but then this is sci-fi we're talking about.

'Yes … all very true !' "

An interesting volte face.

I think the most obvious example of tech rendering camo basically worthless is in Dune. They have these little force field things that slow projectiles so that you can't hit someone wearing one with a projectile effectively.

It is like an inertial field or something. I think it was sort of glowy but it has been years since I read Dune.

You had to stab guys wearing one with a close combat weapon. Presumably you could also crush them with a boulder.

Anyway you wouldn't bother with camouflage when the suit you are wearing gives off light.

Also Superman is science fiction. Why would he ever wear camo?

Yes … Pictor beside I was kidding in that comment … remember this … IT's ALL Sci-fi … Dune, Superman, maybe even Spiderman or Ironman and neither of them wear camo as well … Again … do what works for you … not me. If you want to believe that someday you don't have to use camo, cover and concealment. Go for it. It may come about 100, 200, 1000, years from now … or never. Right now … again … it's all sci-fi in this context. I think we beat this horse enough … "it's dead, Jim !" …

I'd also point out that when making pre-dawn massed tank attacks in the 90s US army tankers were trained to start all their engines and turn their lights on all at once to psyche the enemy out. So your idea that camo is always good isn't even necessarily true in modern warfare.

Funny, the guys in the 116th Cav I knew said that starting every tank at the same time was to conceal the number of tanks.

The guys I knew in the engineers said it was to intimidate the enemy with all the lights coming on at the same time.

Besides, we don't use visual camo on the stealth fighter or bomber. There are already situations where camo is unnecessary.

Legion 4 you called? Paint it Pink here.

My handle comes from being challenged by a friend to paint something pink and make it look good. Also, Paint it Pink alludes to Pink aeroscout company hunter killer teams. And finally, not a gent.

Besides, we don't use visual camo on the stealth fighter or bomber. There are already situations where camo is unnecessary.

Yep … and there are times when it is vital. Both Stealth A\C are painted black … that is a form of visual camo… In the future … it's anyone's guess. Again all based on Tech and need.

Paint it Pink !!!! U Da Mann ! Lovely paint jobs there ! Quite a fashion statement too !! You are still a gent to me ! LOL !! Yes, I'm sure many don't understand the AIR CAV Pink Tm reference. Ah … They can look it up !!!! LOL !!

Besides, we don't use visual camo on the stealth fighter or bomber. There are already situations where camo is unnecessary.

Given their -poor maneuverability, the F117 and B2 are painted for night ops.

The predecessor to the F117, the Have Blue, was painted in an all-weather camo pattern, but apparently the USAF brass didn't like the pastel grays.

For a really funny thought, did you know that Multicam(tm) actually has a PINK in it for the base color?

Okay seems I'm a little late to the party

But take it from an old Grunt "If I can see it, I can kill it!"

If it's a tank then I'll hit it with any anti-armor weapon I have.

If it's infantry then I'll hit them with my most casualty produce weapon I have.

But, I'll hit them with artillery first to mask my fire! To conceal my position for as long as I can.

So for me yes camouflage will still be used in the future. But this is sci-fi gaming so heck paint them any way you want. that makes you happy, don't paint them to make me happy.

I was always told that in hand to hand combat you screamed at the top of your voice to distract. Not sure if that counts as 'scaring'

It's to intimidate (scaring) the enemy (show me your war face!), it also pumps you up for what is about to come.

As you see, I said much of what you said War Monkey … But again … we're old soldiers, like Lion. With a lot of experience. So what do we know !?!? LOL !!!! But again … anyone should always do what works for them. If they want to paint their sci-fi combat troops in red … then go for it ! GW has made a lot of $$$ selling paints and fluff for such a paradigm. LOL !

"Of course we'll paint this 150 meter high Titan in camo, those Orks will never see it coming then!" said no one with any sense ever. ;)

-Will

Tall Trees ? Of course remember, militaries in WWI began to camo structures to make them harder to spot from the new threat from the air …

Saw this and couldn't pass it up !

Camouflage may be of lttle value against a top level enemy with advanced sensors (assuming there are no effective countersmeasures) but in a low level bush war it would still be needed. Don't know if anyone has already mentioned naval crew camo, I mean why? you're inside a ship and the camo doesn't seem to blend in with that and if you're outside in the water, surely you'll want to be seen! But it does look cool and if you're wearing it you'll feel like you belong to a badass force. I paint all my figs and models based on real world designs.

Yes, we discussed this … sensors fail … ECM … ECCM, etc., etc. … Yes, I was told the USN Aquaflage had something to do with paint stains ? But I think the bottom line is … It looks cool ! . And all the other branches have their own camo !

Lion, you are correct. My unit was trained to start all engines ect at the same time to conceal our numbers. 3/64Armour 1st Bde #rd InfDiv and K Trp and HHT 3rd ACR GW1

I paint my sci-fi forces in "camouflage" that looks neat and stands out on the playing surface. Otherwise I risk losing track of miniatures. I need them to stand out and be easily identified but not painted in "parade" colors.

Counterintuitive but works for me. ;)

Don't know if anyone has already mentioned naval crew camo, I mean why? you're inside a ship

And each color of the camo matches one of the paints or greases used on a ship.

Because there is ALWAYS wet paint on a ship, and uniforms are not allowed to have paint on them.