"Is HMGS a moral organization?" Topic

Is HMGS a moral organization that deserves the support of anyone?

I think that many people have realized that as time goes on, that HMGS is irreparably broken and that nothing can be done to repair the organization. The reason that many attendees to the conventions do not buy a membership or bother to vote in the elections, I would put it to you, is because they hope that by not participating in a broken organization and process, that their conscious will not bother them for being part of what HMGS has been doing and what it is about to be able to do.

Unfortunately, this 'broken' state of affairs is not just operational, but also has a moral dimension to it that is progressively getting worse. While in the past the membership or convention attendees could ignore these facts, HMGS, as time progresses, is just verifying off into actions that can only be more and more seen as immoral.

The whole problem of the altered board minute meeting minutes that occurred years ago with the BCC vote, I think, at the time, could be viewed (or hopefully viewed) as a ‘one time misguided effort' to avoid a contract. The problem is that as time as gone on, the problems have gotten progressively worse, to the point that each person needs to ask themselves, am I to blame also, even if I do not vote or buy a membership?

I would put it to you that the answer is yes. Even if you do not buy a member or vote, that being part of HMGS makes you responsible for what they have done and what they are about to do to people.

Louis J. Desy Jr.

So, if one does not vote or pay for membership, they are somehow responsible for the actions for the organization? What if they just go,to a convention? I don't follow the logic here.

OP: Your logic fails.

"I would put it to you, is because they hope that by not participating in a broken organization and process, that their conscious will not bother them for being part of what HMGS has been doing and what it is about to be able to do."

I would put it to you that that is hogwash, bilge water, etc… I don't become a member though I attend conventions because I live outside the HMGS' ambit. So I pay for the fun of attending, but don't participate in the HMGS organization. simple as that.

So much angst, I am truly baffled. You don't like it then walk away. It is just an association of gamers

OF course HMGS is a moral organization. It exists to foster historical gaming with miniature figures. Now, people in the organization may do things that are not moral, but that's not the fault of the organization, per se.

But he's upset about something. And he wants all of us to suffer with him!

Pray tell what villainous shenanigans are about?

I do not agree with your supposition sir.
You have made a blanket statement about a number of individuals who were not involved in that scenario you have described.

So Louis based on your logic no matter what we do or fail to do we are responsible for the organization and what they do or about to do.

Get a life.

What does morality have to do with playing with toy soldiers, and putting on conventions to assist in that past-time?

…..HMGS is irreparably broken and that nothing can be done to repair the organization.

This is a Poe, right?

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law

Don't paint them all with the same brush. There are different chapters run by different people in other parts of the country. This is a great group of fellows and there are others as well.

nhmgs.org

So then build a better mouse trap.

There is only one solution to your question. Start your own organization. Compete with them and take away from them what you find so loathsome.

Anybody can complain. Now is the time for you to take action.

Seriously. You sound really….silly.

Louis.
Has HMGS killed anybody?
Have they been arrested for trafficking in human bodies?
Do they sell drugs?

If not, what the hell are you talking about? What exactly are you holding morally responsible for not voting them out of office?
You are really laying on the drama with a shovel tonight.

Please stop analyzing my conscience in such a glib patronizing sneering way. You have no right to tell me what the state of my conscience is.
You seem to be saying if I do not agree with you I am evil.

I think HMGS is very similar to wargames groups I see advertised in many countries that put on shows and charge memberships or collect dues. They aren't needed necessarily, but must fill some hole since they exist here and abroad. Also, I don't think groups like HMGS are exclusive to our hobby. If an individual doesn't want to belong, they shouldn't. If they still want to go to the shows, they should. But leave others to make their own hobby decisions without ridiculous handwringing over a hobby organization. By the way, I go to Historicon from CA. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is there but is the member of a different organization chapter or a different club. If I go to any convention, anywhere, and feel that I have received good value for my money, then I think whoever has put on that convention has fulfilled their moral obligation.

Is there a reason for this over the top display of angst for a very casual association of mostly older gentlemen that like to play with toy soldiers and get together for 10/365th of a year?

Can you show me on the doll where HMGS touched you?

McKinstry, it should be "show me on the 28mm figure…."

I wonder what Big Billygoat Gruff would say in this situation?

McKinstry-- You gave me a true LOL! Thanks!

This absurd rant needs all the ridicule we can muster. The guy tries to get onto the HMGS board a good long while ago (if I remember correctly), was soundly defeated, and he has been raving about scandals, improprieties, and illegalities in the organization ever since. Those grapes sure are mighty SOUR! 8)=

As an organization of volunteers, the HMGS board has seen ups and downs, silly feuds, and some monumentally poor decision making. Despite all of that is has been by people with the best of intentions.

If it seems impossibly broken to you, start your own and good luck.

If he'd post us an address we could chip in and buy him a straw so he could suck it up…

The OFM has the right of it – if Louie has a moral problem with HMGS he needs to get straight with himself and LEAVE that hated den of villainy (we are talking the HMGS that does Historicon, right? Not Pacific Northwest, or South, or any of the other, blameless branches)…

TMP link

>>>You seem to be saying if I do not agree with you I am evil.

There's a lot of that going around, John.

I get my moral direction every Sunday, 8:00 AM.

If we're looking toward HMGS for moral guidance, we're in worse shape than ever.

DM

I read Teppsta's link to refresh my memory. A blast from the past.
Again?

A few questions, Louis.
1. Why did you run for the BOD originally?
2. Why did you never attend meetings if you wanted to change things?
3. Why are you dredging things up again. Planning on running for the BOD again so you can boycott meetings again?

I hate to sound like a shill for HMGS but all I want is for there to be conventions. They can have orgies with ISIS for all I care or sell Taylor Swift to the Taliban as long as there is a Cold Wars or Fall In to go to.

My experience is with once of the smaller, regional HMGS chapters, that has not had many problems with infighting. I have never been a member of the group now known as "HMGS", formerly known as "HMGS-East", or otherwise responsible for running Historicon, though in years past, I did sometimes attend the convention. I did also have to work with the members of other chapters including HMGS-East, as it was caller back in my day. Below I offer thoughts based on my experiences.

I'm not convinced that the correct term is "moral". I think ethical for your purpose; but think sensible, or even practical may be a better term yet.

My expereice is…

…that every gamer and every HMGS member has an opinion. And that most of those opinions are different from every other gamer or member.

…that most gamers and members don't have the time or interest to get involved.

… that most gamers and members don't care about the stated purpose of HMGS or any of the regional chapters.

… that most gamers and members simply want to go to some conventions.

…that very few members, and the occasional non-member does all of the work for HMGS.

… that the doers do what they can, when they can, and sometimes more than they should be expected to do, and at personal expense that cannot be compensated, such as losing time with their children and family.

… that the doers don't always make the best decisions, despite their best intent. And that many non-doer members and non-members will complain endlessly about the failings of the over-taxed doers, without ever actually attempting to help do or fix anything.

… that when the doers don't do what the complainers want, the doers will be accused of participating in some sort of conspiracy on behalf of evil, purposefully misguiding and misdirecting the group to serve some nefarious purpose.

… that after a few weeks to few decades each the volunteers, the doers, will begin to ask themselves, "Why Lord? Why did I get myself into this?"

… that occasionally, a doer with a personal, or pre-conceived agenda will get involved.

… that sometimes, they don't even realize that they have a pre-conceived or personal agenda, because they just think that their idea is a good idea, or that everybody agrees with them.

… that a small number of people will thank the doers for the work that they do, and a smaller number will make a lot of noise and accusations without ever having much or any firsthand information, that most gamers just want to go to a convention without concern for the work that has to be done, and the doers will just go with that, until they burn out.

… that it gets harder over time for the doers to hear the valid complaints, because there are simply so many complaints that are not.

… that once in awhile a doer will make a really bad choice, and that every doer forever after will have to carry the burden of that error, while almost all of the complainers never put forth any effort to help and never forget.

I could go on forever, but guess I'm losing you by now. HMGS is not a secret society, if you have a better idea, and time, just get involved. Contact them. Before you push your ideas, find out what has to be done by the guys that have been doing the work. Then offer how you think things might be better accomplished.

And, as you contact them, you are contacting a guy that mostly puts time and effort into a cause that he believes in, while being frequently told that he is doing it wrong by people that never do anything. He may be a little distant or defensive at first (or not). Don't let that put you off. Listen to them as much as you expect them to listen to you. And do what you can to make things better.

HMGS isn't a struggle between good and evil. It is the struggle of a few volunteers trying to do more work than they should, while mostly being told how they are doing it wrong. Sometimes they do get it wrong, but if more were honestly and genuinely involved, there would be less of that.

Hey….. I got a tin foil hat for sale. Half price…. just don't ask where I got it.

After rereading my above post I want to say that I'm not implying in any way that HMGS, its BOD, volunteers, members etc are in any way immoral. I see now that it could have been perceived that way.

The morality of HMGS is just not a question I ponder when it comes time to renew my membership.

DM

It seems not to be an issue of "moral", rather an issue of "Morale."

Soooooo…let me see if I get this straight….

I live in Indiana, didn't attend Historicon, Fall-In, or Cold Wars for quite a looooooooooong time….
Am a member of HMGS-Midwest, and primarily support Little Wars, and yet…somehow, someway I am part of the problem of what's going on with the East Coast shenanigans of HMGS?….

Yeah….right……

Truly your logic and reasoning escapes me…..

Louis, I am a founder member one of the miscreants who
met in Wally's Basement all those long years ago to visit
our immorality upon the historical miniatures gaming
world.

The price of cartridges being what it is, please send
to me, at your expense, either a .38 or a .40 pistol
cartridge so I can rid the world of a blight upon the
gaming scene.

Brothers, I leave it to you to decide WHO gets shot…

Editor-in-chief – please note this is NOT a threat to
anyone – rather a commitment to a cleansing of the
hobby….

I think Irishserb has done a brilliant summary of how anything ever gets made to happen.

As to the whys and wherefores of the long running (and far from entertaining) trainwreck of vendetta and grudge, the phrase "Only in America" comes to mind. Over here we'd have gone down to the pub and formed a new group 4 years ago.

Ed, I believe it is the squeaky wheel that gets greased, so you should be using that cartridge on Louie.

Irishserb is right on.

Cut the cartridge talk and grow up. Louis ca have his say, even if he's incorrectly pushing an agenda.

Sorry, KSmyth, but at the age of 74, I REFUSE to grow
up and will continue to play with my toy soldiers !

So there !

Agreed, irishserb and KSmyth are right.

There are two camps:
1. Those who work and devote time organizing conventions.
2. Those who go and enjoy the fruits of the labours of those in camp 1.

I'm in the second camp.
KSmyth for MANY years was is camp 1. He has seen it all.

As a Canadian who frequents Enfilade HMGS West Convention, I've seen many of the same faces at the front door, running the convention. These gentlemen devote time to help others have a good convention. Is there a moral question here?

These chaps do their very best to have a good convention and have a good time themselves. They do this once a year and most are not lucky enough to have a gaming group such as I have, that meets every Thursday.

There is no HMGS in Canada, just groups and a few organizations such as The Trumpeters of Vancouver.

All organizations have their problems. They're groups of individuals trying to do their best for the hobby.
To promote our hobby, celebrate and encourage manufacturers and dealers to create, sell and distribute gaming material.
That's the main focus of conventions isn't it?
Is this morally correct?

Who really cares as Ed Mohrmann says, I just want too see beautifully painted figures in wonderful terrain that I can game with.

I gladly salute all those who give their spare time to ensure this happens.

The link above shows the OP as winning an election to the HMGS E NOD. But it also shows him not attending any BOD meetings or taking any responsible positions.
It also shows him being removed from said BOD for reasons not given.

At this time were there shenanigans going on? Was their corruption? Or was it just plain incompetence? Or did some people simply not like the way things were run? Who knows ? I sure don't. Not do I care. But I resent like hell Mister Desy's attempt to lay a guilt trip on everybody from the BOD to people who just want to play Games to the UPS driver to a stripper on Pittsburgh.
Perhaps someone should look in a mirror instead of blaming all and sundry.

Just to be clear:

I've spent a lot of the past 50 years organizing games,
game groups and conventions of various sorts.

I recently completed my latest (15 years) stint at running
our local conventions and am now retired from that so I
can actually play games !

That, and $10 USD, will get me some Starbuck's – not that
I'd drink it – but should also provide a bit of 'street
cred' vis-à-vis my sounding off about Louis.

I enjoy a nice slice of Apple Pie.

You can not blame an organization for what you regard is bad actions of individuals.
This is an unfounded attack on the HMGS outfit. If you are unhappy then resign and boycott but it is improper for you to try to cripple the organization.
In fact some would regard this as amoral attack.
I have seen many HMGS offshoots and other organizations such as HMG in Texas over my 30+ years of going to shows. Many have had bumps in the road. People have to learn to cope with the bumps.

I think he (OP) resigned over some issue that he did not want to comply with. I think that the trouble HMGS has repeatedly had over the years has been that those folks who have devoted their time start to be believe that they are the organization. And when so few vote you can't real blame them for coming to this conclusion. Frankly lot of organizations have these sort of problems. I thank the folks who organize the HMGS cons and the people who put on the games

Dear Nazrat

You are incorrect. Louis Desy Jr. ran for the Board of Directors, and was ELECTED TO IT! He then refused to serve because he would not sign the "confidentiality agreement" and I believe, submit a conflict of interest statement." His place was taken on the Bod by Kevin Kelly.

Otto

Organizations cannot be moral or immoral. Only the morality of those who have power to effect their will though the organization can have a moral dimension.

People who decline to support with money or participation in the organization activities are neither moral or immoral but, in this case simply participating in preferences. It reflects neither partisanship or indifference.

Louis, your point is invidious and everyone knows the debate you are trying to start. Even some of the most ferocious foes of the BOD and the organization will not take up the cudgel you have thrown down.

Louis, you HAD your chance. You were elected to the BOD by a goodly margin, but you would not serve on it. There is really nothing more you can do here or anywhere, and your reputation is pretty much trashed by your own flagrant conduct. You did this to yourself Louis. You continue to shoot yourself in the foot.

"You are incorrect."

Yep, I got that from the other posts about it. I remembered wrongly, but the reality was way worse than I thought it was.

Dear Nazrat

That is true. It was a bruising nasty fight with lots of slanging on TMP. The reality was pretty bad and it poisoned the well for a while. I always got the feeling Louis wanted the BOD to change it's method of operation to suit him.

I wonder why he is dragging all this up now?
Is he that non self-aware that he thinks he can resurrect his beef with the BOD without his own conduct being brought up?

As Herm Edwards says on ESPN "Don't hit SEND".

All human institutions, no matter how noble in inspiration, remain at the mercy of their human stewards. HMGS is no different.

B