"Did Halftracks have crews?" Topic

Did WW2 halftracks have dedicated crews separate and apart from the troops they transported. I doubt it!
According to the TO&E of the US armored infantry platoon, a squad consisted of twelve men, INCLUDING a designated driver, but NO dedicated machine gunner for the halftrack's weapon. This means a full strength rifle squad operating with a halftrack could field at most 11 men + a mobile halftrack driven by the designated driver, or 10 men in the field plus the driver and one other man left inside to man the gun, or 12 men in the field with the halftrack empty, immobile, and toothless. I have not seen a German TO&E, but I suspect it is the same. In other words, the driver and anyone manning the gun probably came out of the hide of the squad itself and were not in addition to a full strength squad. Anyone have access to a German TO&E to check? If my suspicion is correct, rules should require players to reduce the manpower of their squads appropriately if they wish to field a mobile, firing half track. Bolt Action was on the right track!

I don't know if you are making a statement or asking a question?

As far as US TO&Es are concerned you are correct. German practice was different. See link . You will note that for each halftrack there is a designated driver and assistant driver/machine gunner. There are 8 dismounts – squad leader,asst squad leader(usually also the designated radio operator), 2 machine gunners, and 4 riflemen. It was German practice to keep the 2 men with the vehicle to act as support/base of fire for the dismounts. There really isn't much point in having a vehicle in the game if there is no one to man it.

That's an Army publication TO&E. Not how squads operated in the field. As an old soldier, I can say with some real world experience that we almost never left out vehicles unmanned in the field. Of course, you may have done so, as a squad leader. But only just the once. Then you would've been set back among the privates.

Also, remember that driving skills were not as common among the Russians (and even the Germans) as the Yanks during the WWII period.

Might find some useful information for US forces in FM 17-71. As Rrobbyrobot points out that may not be what happened in the field.

link

Thanks Leper Messiah for the excellent link. It confirms my suspicions. Full strength panzer grenadier platoons were 10 men (though as the war progressed it often was reduced to 9). To move and fire the halftrack, two of these men were kept in the vehicle, thus reducing the number of combatants outside the vehicle to 7-8. In other words, German practice was similar to US practice….the driver and vehicle gunner were not IN ADDITION TO the squad, but part of it, thereby REDUCING the number of combatants outside the vehicle. The Germans differed from the US in designating one of the squad members to man the machince gun, but this reduced the number of combatants in the squad on the ground. Many wargamers allow full strength squads to run around supported by a moving, firing halftrack--magically conjuring up one or two additional men out of thin air to add to the the strength of their fighting force. This is INCORRECT. If you want your halftrack to move and fire, and as the old soldier points out, who wouldn't, you must REDUCE the number of men fighting outside the track accordingly.

Well, of course the number of men dismounted would be less two men. My problem with rules like Bolt Action is they tend to regulate this away. There are those of us who are not opposed to using house rules to shore up the author's mistakes, however. They also prevent players following the letter of the rules subdividing their squads into fire teams. This can be worked around by building 5 man 'squads'. But the result is a larger number of fragile units.
I play Bolt Action. I'm preparing to go play a game today. But our version of the rules is starting to look very different than what the authors wrote.

"This is INCORRECT. If you want your halftrack to move and fire, and as the old soldier points out, who wouldn't, you must REDUCE the number of men fighting outside the track accordingly."

Incorrect historically, but the way people play with their toy soldiers is correct for THEM no matter what YOU think. Many rules sets build this two man crew into the rules themselves (as Battlegroup, Arc of Fire, and others do) so saying that because one didn't actively leave two guys in the transport means it sits empty is as useless as keeping track of gasoline or MG ammo in each vehicle. If you want to get technical about it, doctrine generally did not have the troop transports moving any where NEAR actual combat. The soldiers were supposed to debuss a good ways back from the front and leg it into combat. That fact still won't ever stop gamers from driving right up to enemy troops and gunning them down with invisible crew… 8)=

Play your games your way, and the rest of us will play our way. Have tons of fun. Just don't preach to us about what's right and wrong in our games.

British halftracks had only one driver/mechanic allocated to the vehicle.

HOWEVER, I do have specific examples (as well as the testimony of two officers) where a gunner would be allocated to the halftrack and the halftrack then used to beef up the section firepower as the tactical situation required.

War Establishments/TO&Es/Orbats really do only tell part of the story.

Jemima: out of curiousity, where did the extra manb to work the halftrack machine gun in British practice come from?

Nazrat: You are right. Some of us like to play historical games, others prefer fantasy mascarading as history. To each his own.

It was German practice to keep the 2 men with the vehicle to act as support/base of fire for the dismounts. There really isn't much point in having a vehicle in the game if there is no one to man it.

That's the way we we're trained with M113s in the US ARMY back in the '80s.

As an old soldier, I can say with some real world experience that we almost never left out vehicles unmanned in the field.

Yep !

"You are right. Some of us like to play historical games, others prefer fantasy mascarading as history. To each his own."

I know I am. But you couldn't be more misguided in your elitist view of what "history" is in regards to playing with toy soldiers…

I have to agree … After playing 1 to 1 scale wargames for over a decade in my distant youth, '79-'91. All I do is 6mm sci-fi … However, I've always studied and played historical since the '60s. And still constantly study history … But as I always say, do what works for you not me !

LH,

There was no extra man allocated – he had to be drawn from the section (which in the case of a Motor Section, left six dismounts). One of the examples is from the Royal Engineers, where the section strength was stronger, at ten men (a Royal Engineers Troop belonging to an Armoured Division had six Sections, two of them in Halftracks).

Thanks JF. As you know, another interesting and somewhat related thread on th subject of US vs. British halftrack crews in the WWII land discussion.

These problems (and the "history" arguement of LH v. Nrat) are solved by using appropriate levels of abstraction.

A dismounted squad is just a unit of firepower approprate to the number of men available after leaving out the halftrack crew. The halftrack model represents the vehicle plus enough men to make it function. This produces an historical result without the tedium of a head count (never accurate in any case given often understrength units etc.)

A much bigger problem is wandering halftracks. Often games allow a squad to unload and then the halftrack with a crew drawn from that same squad wanders off on its own mission (carrying away the packs and possessions of the rest of the squad). Sometimes the halftrack loads up a different squad and them goes off and effectively joins a different unit.

Rules keeping them together are more important than a strict head count.

TomT

I agree!

Leaving an unmanned halftrack would be like leaving your unlocked car parked in the street with the keys hanging in the ignition. You might find it when you return but you should not count on it.

There is one historical incident that David Glantz mentions in his Stalingrad trilogy, in which a Wehrmacht panzer grenadier battalion was divided: dismounted squads conducted a city attack, and the halftracks (presumably with a driver and machinegunner) were sent to a different sector in order to provide fire support.

That's the only example in WW2 that I recall of panzer grenadier units being split up like that. It may be the exception that proves the rule.