"BMD-2 and Spigot vs Leo 2A1" Topic

Had an interesting game last Thursday on the theme of Paratroops, in this case the Russians having landed and taken a bridge were being counter attacked by the Germans with Leopard 2A1. It becomes intersting as from the front a Spigot is a poor match for a Lepoard 2 but from the side its well up to the fight. This makes it interesting as how much does the armour count. If the BMD 2 holds its fire from the front and shoots at the side its likely to take out the Leopard 2. Certainly the Lepoard 2 is likly to devastase a BMP using Heat, irrespective of direction its better against low armour targets. It does beg the question though as who comes of best. I guess the argument is a gun shoots faster than a missile so if the Spigot is not a first hit and eliminates all targets it may not get a second chance. Also the Spigot has a chance of being put off by fast blooming hot smoke from the Leo. But a gun will be too fast be botherd by smoke not already present. As both are splinter proof of sorts even HE is not that much of a threat to the BMP 2.

Comments diagreements welcome.

Basic approximations Spigot penetration is 15 closest to460mm RHA v Leo front 18 about 800mm equivalent RHA (accounts for some spaced armour) and about the same side turret 15 (assumes some spacing for anti shaped charge).

ATGM fire is best from ambush positions. If undetected their first salvo could be devastating. If their holding a bridge, the Leopards would get the best of them if they know the BMD's are there. Depends on urban or light woods near the bridge.
Would beehive rounds be effective against ATGMs? 120mm HE alone can ruin a BMD's day.

> As both are splinter proof of sorts even HE is not that much of a threat to the BMP 2.

Definitely not my impression. The BMP has good protection from ~.50 cal to the front, but its armor will mostly only stop medium mortar fragments. The BMD is a bit more balanced all round with it's armor but again only has enough to stop medium mortars.

The only way I see the BMD coming out ahead in this encounter if is they are off the bridge and waiting in ambush. Or if the Germans are conducting a hasty attack without preparatory fire or infantry scouting.

Can the missiles be fired dismounted? If so get them off the BMD and into ambush from an enfilading position

Quaker,
On the bridge they would be dog meat, if the Leos see them before the BMD's see the Leo's there is no contest, guns are fast.
Its an interesting issue about what is splinter proof, and how it works out. Quite rightly the US mauals on dammage assessment are limited for Civis like me. However even from them the shot density (rounds per square meter) you use goes down) for a given dammage. So taking the MG stonk as an approximation. it takes 8 – 81 mm mortar rounds to suppress infantry int hat area but only 2 – 155mm rounds. So it depends on how many rounds you put in an area as to how much damage you put on an AFV. An medium mortar has a much higher chance of landing near an AFV than a 155mm assuming they are aiming for the same overall damage. You would need direct fire or enourmouse amounts of fire to actually get a 155mm round as close as medium mortar round.

In our scenario we had no artillery fire it being a poor quality scratch Kamphgrupe going at the The Russians.

David,
Getting the missiles off the vehicle. Not sure if they could will have to chewck. I would not do it in this case anyway as there would be no time to dig it in so they would be very vulnerable to snall arms. Plus if it was in the wrong place there would be no chance of moveing it.

I did cheat and give the Russians some woods and a few very small hills so they could get hull down positions. It is an asside but we never define a hill crest as skylining as they are assumed to have a reasonable hill further back. Is that how everybody plays?

Everything I've read points to ATGM being most effective when used from ambush positions.

If you want to get REALLY technical, you can do some math:
(Assuming the scenario is BMP fires first from an obscured position, since if the tank spots and fires first, it's curtains for the APC)

The BMP fires the missile.

It takes a certain amount of time for the tank crew to spot the launch. (split seconds?)

It then takes a certain amount of time for the tank commander to shout a command (split seconds?)

How long does it take for the tank to acquire the target accurately, turn the turret to face the BMP, fire and for the shell to travel to the target?

VERSUS

The flight time of the missile from launch to the target?

Fancy staking your life on that math being in your favour?
If not, I imagine some sort of reaction throw will be in order to see if the tank crew does fire or tries to move instead.

If all of that sounds too complicated, roll 1D6:
1-2 Tank gets hit. 3-5 Tank evades. 6 Tank fires back. If it destroys the BMP, give a 1 in 6 chance that the tank is also hit by the missile.