"French Ordonnance Archer Cavalry c.1513" Topic

Here's my painstaking effort at an often overlooked aspect of the French lance of the early sixteenth century

More on the development of this unit over on my blog;

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Thanks for looking

Stuart

Thank you. You've provided an excellent service to the community.

Awesome work!

Excellent paintwork and conversions as always, just a quick note on this image.

These men are not equipped and dressed for war but rather ready to take part in "rennen" i.e jousting which existed as a martial sport in several forms including a several which were most popular in Germany and the HRE.

Thanks Daniel, you really helped me to understand the French lance of this period.

I can't remember where I found this series of paintings but really admire the colours and detail. In this instance I just liked the socks! I say that very loosely, they appear to be lower hose that have fallen perhaps? Those and the slashed arms combined with a base coat I considered a reasonable representation for a trumpeter – and a reason to attempt sculpting slashed sleeves.

All the best

Stuart

These are great. I need some for my French army

They look superb! If someone marketed such quality, I'd buy some. Well done!

I cannot find my book to check it, but these look like coloured versions of the "Triumph of Maximilian" painting, which contain a series of tournament variants. Allegedly some were invented by Maximilian himself, an active participant in his youth. If not, they are made in the same spirit.

Stuart – as usual your work is beyond praise. The combination of research, modification and sculpting result in something that resembles a historical work. Some day you need to go beyond that blog-form to publish your units.

Puster – you are right.
The Triumphzug can be found here link
The brighter one in Spain is here link

Incredible work. When did the ordinance archers stop being archers and turn more into "demi lancers"? I have lots of figures for the "Italian Wars" era but things seemed to have changed drastically between 1492-1525.

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The above looks at the early 16c where they are noted as fighting with bow, crossbow, mace and demilance, their role appears somewhat organic and transitionary up to around the early 1530's, I really feel they were multi purpose which unfortunately is at odds with the gaming preoccupation with separation into distinct groups of similarly armed men.

To answer your question, I'd say you're getting to perhaps the 1540's before their role becomes more that of a lancer, I know there are more here better qualified to give an answer !

When the archers stopped being actual archers is debated – has been debated on this forum more than once act'ly. Most opinions, I believe, wuuld fall between the 1490s and the 1520s. It's quite possible the change occured at different points in different companies.

I think there is a point where lancers and argoulets (mounted crossbowmen) do start to become defined where previously they were all just ordonnance archers.

As part of the lance the archers were literally that and above them were the men at arms and the gendarmes, I suppose in that sense you could field distinct lighter lance armed cavalry separate to the Gendarme from 1490 on.

The point where these just become within the heavy cavalry and the archers are then Demi lancers I'm not sure

I assume the transfer was gradually. In the ordonnance companies the money usually went to the lance leader (though often not directly), and he was responsible for paying his folks. While the ordonnance demanded a bow, I think its likely that the gensdarmes equipped their retinue in a way that enhanced their survival chances on the battlefield (and for loot). It seems that the lance armed retinue was deemed better return of investment, or the powers that be (or rather pay) would have stomped upon that habit.
I would expect an ever decreasing proportion of the retinue armed with the bow as their main weapon between 1480 and 1520.
In battle, despite the "lance" as a structure men would often team up into units of similar equipment, so some of the "archers" would go out arching, while some would follow their Gensdarmes or be grouped into a unit of lighter horse. Exact deployment would depend on the situation – war usually leaves no place for stupid dogmatics, at least not twice.
That said, I was unable to dig out exact information, and this is mere speculation based on snippets and reports of the habit of other armies. Daniel probably has better information and sources, which I would like to hear.

I think that's spot on Puster, here's a few of the scant references;

Balsac 1490, mentions archers fighting with bows though deploring that many could not shoot.

Set of paintings depicting Louis XII's 1507 campaign in Genoa depicts mounted archers with bows

Bayard 1509, mentions his archers fighting with lance against Stradiots.

Ravenna 1512, archers de la garde are (curiously) mentioned fighting with maces whereas other archers are mentioned as just that – both could be that this was a siege, i'm just guessing?

Ordonnance of 1514 expressly states archers for use of the bow & crossbow on foot and mounted.

Marignano 1515, archers are pressed into the desperate charges against the Swiss – necessity rather than any pre-emption, this could be the turning point perhaps?

Ordonnance 1526, lifts the status of the archer, requiring that archers are 'medium' cavalry used to perform mopping up actions (not unlike cheveu legers)- a year after Pavia a safer bet is perhaps wanted with a more mobile yet able lancer?

Here the transition is evident perhaps but also you can see as Puster points out that the archers are pressed into service where the need arises, so quite versatile and able men.

Set of paintings depicting Louis XII's 1507 campaign in Genoa depicts mounted archers with bows

Le Voyage de Gênes (The Journey to Genoa) by Jean Marot, 1510-1520

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

The one point I find odd is that the archers at Marignano are specifically mentioned as cavalry. With the Swiss being mainly infantry relying on close formation without cavalry support, one would assume that they offered the best possible target for archers.
Yet, perhaps they had already expanded their arrows on the first day, perhaps within the first hour of battle. Arrows were a limited resource, and could be spend pretty fast.

Alternatively there were sufficient other ranged troops, like the Italians or Aventuriers…

That will likely be another factor in the transition from archer to lancer. The arquebus, as an effective weapon that demanded far less training then the bow, allowed for less trained troops to take the ranged role. Full time soldiers, like the members of the lance, became too valuable to be used as mere bowmen – as long as cheaper troops could fill that role.

The Tournament Book mentioned above:

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And another:
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Great resource :-)
These finely show the different tournament variants – to us latecomers probably as obscure in their deviations as different racing car classes would be to renaissance visionars.